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Thread: PIE Homeland: after David Reich, MPI-SHH supports the "southern Caucasus hypothesis".

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    PIE Homeland: after David Reich, MPI-SHH supports the "southern Caucasus hypothesis".

    On 21st of April 2018, a new German documentary (3 episodes) about human migrations, "Les grands voyages de l‘humanité"/"Die Reise der Menschheit" (Cristina Trebbi and
    Christian Twente, Germany, 2018), was broadcasted by ARTE a public Franco-German TV network that promotes programming in the areas of culture and the arts.

    https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/069847...-humanite-1-3/ (in French/German language but not sure it can be viewed outside of Europe)

    In the first episode of this documentary, we can listen Johannes Krause and Russell Gray from prestigious Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (MPI-SHH) talking about Ancient DNA and PIE homeland.

    Johannes Krause is Director of Department of Archeogenetics and Russell Gray is Director of Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution.

    At minute 23:00, Russell Gray : "According to us, the best hypothesis is the one which brings together genetic and linguistic data. They [the Proto-Indo-Europeans] would have lived east of the fertile crescent about 8000 years ago ... We believe that the origin is here in the southern Caucasus, eastern Anatolia, Armenia, and perhaps in northern Iran about 8,000 years ago"



    As a reminder, this is what David Reich writes in his last book "...the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in presend-day Iran or Armenia, because Ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians" ("Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past", 2018, p.120).


    So after David Reich, we have now the prestigious Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (MPI-SHH) which also supports the South of Caucasus hypothesis as PIE homeland.
    Last edited by E_M81_I3A; 04-22-2018 at 08:16 AM.
    Estimated Ancestry: Western Eurasia 90%, Africa 10% (Ancient North Africa 5%, SSA 5%)
    Living Dna: Europe 83, NearEast 6.8, Africa 10.1 (NorthAfrica 4.6, Yoruba 4.2, Mandinka 1.4)
    Basal K7: Basal 43.7, Villabruna 42.7, ANE 7.7, SSA 4.7, EastEurasian 1
    Global 25: Iberomaurusian 11, WHG 6, Barcin_N 46, Levant_ChL 6, Yamnaya 26, Yoruba 5
    Eurogenes K13: North_Atlantic 26.2, West_Med 24.8, East_Med 17.7, Baltic 8.9, Red_Sea 7.7, Sub-Saharan 5.6, Northeast_African 4.7, West_Asian 3.0

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    Reich is following Krause and Gray, as they formulated a renewed "Armenian Hypothesis" 2 years ago (Gray has always been a deffender of the Anatolian Hypothesis).
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.fr/2016/10...at-bounce.html

    Obviously, the fact that all DNA results to date are going for a PIE homeland in the Pontic Steppe is no exactly going in their way.

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    I don't agree, your presentation is not fair. You tell "AFTER David Reich, we have now the prestigious etc...". In fact Krause supports a sort of anatolian model ( sort of) for a long time. MPI, with the tandem Krause-Gray, is not since last month a citadel of the anatolian models: the first Gray & Atkinson bayesian attempt is dated 2003 (that said I don't know when Gray entered Max Plank). Indeed, there is nothing new, absolutely nothing, but 22 lines in Reich's book (p120), from "While the genetic findings ...." to " ... such as Hittite."
    People who quote some short extracts from those 22 lines forget to notice some very cautious and ambiguous formulas: " This suggests to me ...", "If this scenario is right ...." . Whoever reads properly sees that Reich here does'nt support a model, but puts an assumption, and furthermore that this assumption is obviously presented as circumstancial (" the evidence here is circumstancial as no ancient DNA from the Hittite themselves ...").

    edit: my friend ffoucart has been more reactive than me, he posted while I was writing.
    Last edited by anglesqueville; 04-22-2018 at 08:34 AM.
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    Yes but the fact if that we have now Directors of both MPI-SHH and Reich lab, which led most Ancient DNA studies, who all say the same.
    Last edited by E_M81_I3A; 04-22-2018 at 09:05 AM.
    Estimated Ancestry: Western Eurasia 90%, Africa 10% (Ancient North Africa 5%, SSA 5%)
    Living Dna: Europe 83, NearEast 6.8, Africa 10.1 (NorthAfrica 4.6, Yoruba 4.2, Mandinka 1.4)
    Basal K7: Basal 43.7, Villabruna 42.7, ANE 7.7, SSA 4.7, EastEurasian 1
    Global 25: Iberomaurusian 11, WHG 6, Barcin_N 46, Levant_ChL 6, Yamnaya 26, Yoruba 5
    Eurogenes K13: North_Atlantic 26.2, West_Med 24.8, East_Med 17.7, Baltic 8.9, Red_Sea 7.7, Sub-Saharan 5.6, Northeast_African 4.7, West_Asian 3.0

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    The fact is only that the question of PIE homeland is a linguistical question, and that geneticists like Reich and Krause are absolutely ignorant in linguistics, and therefore are always in danger of believing what tell impostors like Gray. Well, as I'm a big boy and I know that if we start here a debate like those on the autosomal or linguistic forums, it is going to derail in the same way, I stop now. Final point for me.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Reich is following Krause and Gray, as they formulated a renewed "Armenian Hypothesis" 2 years ago (Gray has always been a deffender of the Anatolian Hypothesis).
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.fr/2016/10...at-bounce.html

    Obviously, the fact that all DNA results to date are going for a PIE homeland in the Pontic Steppe is no exactly going in their way.
    Why are you claiming stuff which is not even true? Why are you constantly ignoring R1 in the Neolithic Near East?

    anglesqueville, I won't discuss this again but want to tell you that your emotianl feelings can be read out of your lines, so a neutral and unbiased opinion would have been formulated differently. You are calling other people ignorant on linguistics and are arguing in the same breath for the Indo-Uralic hyphotese. Also if this only a linguistic question then stop arguing with your Steppes pastoralists as PIEs, you can claim this (being solely a linguistic question) for things which do not fit your opinion, but others' opinion which is at least somewhere in Europe can be tolerated.
    Last edited by mephisto; 04-22-2018 at 09:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mephisto View Post
    Why are claiming stuff which is not even true? Why are you constantly ignoring R1 in the Neolithic Near East?
    Because R1 by itself proves nothing, and the only sample with a related subclade is either intrusive in the chalcolithic layer, or an outlier (given his autosomal profile).

    In any case, PIE is a linguistic matter, and there is a huge consensus among linguists to fix the PIE homeland in the Pontic Steppe.

    Now there are enough threads on the subject.

    It's always the same arguments, often biased for personal agendas (as yours). Boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Because R1 by itself proves nothing, and the only sample with a related subclade is either intrusive in the chalcolithic layer, or an outlier (given his autosomal profile).

    In any case, PIE is a linguistic matter, and there is a huge consensus among linguists to fix the PIE homeland in the Pontic Steppe.

    Now there are enough threads on the subject.

    It's always the same arguments, often biased for personal agendas (as yours). Boring.
    Why was it not a linguist matter when every person argued that IE languages evolved from the Steppes cultures? Why all of a sudden when (renowned) people start arguing that R1b and with it (not R1a) PIE cultures evolved South of the Caucasus it gets a solely linguistic matter? Don't you have a personal agenda here? Maybe towards a region (and maybe speaking a language in the broadest sense from that region)? I am not biased and I can tell you that I couldn't care less from where PIE languages originally were from, not like some other members here who are not content with their paternal haplogroup results and thus argue only for the South of the Caucasus homeland.
    Last edited by mephisto; 04-22-2018 at 09:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rz1706 View Post
    On 21st of April 2018, a new German documentary (3 episodes) about human migrations, "Les grands voyages de l‘humanité"/"Die Reise der Menschheit" (Cristina Trebbi and
    Christian Twente, Germany, 2018), was broadcasted by ARTE a public Franco-German TV network that promotes programming in the areas of culture and the arts.

    https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/069847...-humanite-1-3/ (in French/German language but not sure it can be viewed outside of Europe)

    In the first episode of this documentary, we can listen Johannes Krause and Russell Gray from prestigious Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (MPI-SHH) talking about Ancient DNA and PIE homeland.

    Johannes Krause is Director of Department of Archeogenetics and Russell Gray is Director of Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution.

    At minute 23:00, Russell Gray : "According to us, the best hypothesis is the one which brings together genetic and linguistic data. They [the Proto-Indo-Europeans] would have lived east of the fertile crescent about 8000 years ago ... We believe that the origin is here in the southern Caucasus, eastern Anatolia, Armenia, and perhaps in northern Iran about 8,000 years ago"



    As a reminder, this is what David Reich writes in his last book "...the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in presend-day Iran or Armenia, because Ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians" ("Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past", 2018, p.120).


    So after David Reich, we have now the prestigious Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (MPI-SHH) which also supports the South of Caucasus hypothesis as PIE homeland.
    Is this some kind of comedy ? All genetic and linguistic data is speaking against this. Again this is proving, that having an academic education does not mean that you are always capable of logical thinking. Proto-Indo-Europeans as patriarchal people would hardly speak the language of their "CHG mothers" or are they soon claiming against all linguistic and archaelogical evidences that PIEs were actually matriarchal farmers?
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 04-22-2018 at 10:22 AM.
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    When the Max Planck linguistic-only model appeared years ago, their theory was that IE spread via neolithic Anatolia to Europe.

    Its great that now in combination with aDNA the model has changed to the bronze age expansion with a Maikop-->Yamna path for northern IE. They directly claim that in the documentary: Natufians brought the neolithic to Europe and IE was a bronze age phenomenon.

    I guess Reich Labs and Max Planck both have unpublished samples from Anatolian IE groups plus numerous samples from Mycenaean and Maikop that proves something I anticipated 10 years ago, but more important than me people like Dienekes.

    Exciting times.
    Last edited by Patarames; 04-22-2018 at 10:48 AM.

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