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Thread: Sacramento's East Side Rapist

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris View Post
    There are a lot of feasible DNA pitfalls that investigators should make sure to avoid. There was an interesting episode of Elementary early on where the killer left blood behind that matches an innocent man because the killer had undergone a bone marrow transplant and the innocent guy was the donor. Also cases where a son isn't the biological son of a couple due to switched at hospital which could point investigators in the completely wrong direction.

    What I'd hope for is just some ethical guidelines on how to handle cases where you have DNA and want to use it to find the family of the perpetrator to narrow in on the guilty party. I'm worried we'll see some poorly thought out over reactions written into the law when I don't think that's really necessary.
    You can probably find better examples but this one of twins and crime is good as it shows a mutation in the genes: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25371014

    Surprisingly there's multiple examples of fertility doctors who used their own sperm to impregnate their customers all the while stating that they had anonymous donors: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/1...jail-time.html and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Jacobson are just two examples. These are caught by parental DNA testing.

    "Ethical guidelines," really needed to avoid "knee-jerk reactions" which we could all be subject to once the public really lets this sink in. Genetics appears to have been manipulated and abused not only by science and the doctors behind the study but now, also, by law enforcement. We're the ones at risk now, who knows who's had access to our files? What if the general public decides to clump in all our "citizen-scientists" into one big mass of potential crime? Remember DNA testing is illegal in France, so there's already a precedent in place if a nation were to decide to ban the science outright.
    "Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ear..."

  2. #22
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    Just found this article, it's from a couple of months ago and before the EAR bust: https://gizmodo.com/what-dna-testing...ies-1819158337

    One of the co-admins in the Family Tree DNA project really pushes Yahoo haplogroup membership, and when your Big Y comes in he also directs you to send it off to DNA Warehouse. I did the latter, but I'm not in any Yahoo DNA group now. Here's the example of you taking one DNA test and getting your results spread around to numerous websites. That's spread pretty thin.

    I'm on The Big Tree and my VCF file's at YFull, but I haven't gotten my BAM file back so my inclusion there isn't complete yet. I did get into my specific haplogroup group as I'd backed my DF27>Z2573 with SNP tests at both FTDNA and YSEQ, but it's all still incomplete until my BAM file gets here.

    So it appears my genes are at all the at-risk hotspots now. Except for the Yahoo groups, of course. If someone wanted to hack my genes, there's not much to be done to stop him or them. No idea why I'd be a target, seems like someone in the U106 kings cluster somewhere would be much more profitable to clone. Sure don't want to give these dudes any ideas, though.
    "Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ear..."

  3. #23
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    A quick search didn't give many results for any ACLU commentary on EAR and DNA websites. Matter of fact, this video is the only hit I got:



    And I just realized the election's almost here, I got my sample ballot in the mail yesterday. Relevance? Gov. Brown was in office the first time when EAR started catching the news, and he's just about to finish his last term. He's been getting a lot of criticism from the federal government for certain political positions he's taken; I don't want to stray off topic but recent developments in DC had at least one reporter talking of the "deafening silence of the ACLU" when a certain lawyer's office was raided by the FBI.

    Not much on the Web about this particular EAR bust from that civil liberties organization. Nor could I find any statement from Gov. Brown himself. No idea what this means or if it means anything at all, but there's certainly a shake-up at Family Tree already.
    "Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ear..."

  4. #24
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    "The innovative strategy of using consumer genealogy websites for criminal investigations is fraught with questions about privacy and civil liberties. Sacramento County Dist. Atty. Anne Marie Schubert...was responsible for what became known as the "John Doe warrant," which sought evidence from an unnamed suspect based on his DNA."

    DeAngelo's attorney isn't wanting to let info on how he was caught let loose to the public: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...514-story.html

    This, from an earlier article:

    "The company whose genetic website was used by investigators...says it was never contacted by law enforcement. A spokeswoman for FamilyTreeDNA.com, which operates YSearch.org, says Friday that the company takes the privacy of its customers seriously. But, the company says it supports 'ethically and legally justified uses of groundbreaking advancements of scientific research in genetics and genealogy.' Court records obtained by The Associated Press showed that investigators used a genetic profile based off DNA from crime scenes linked to the serial killer and compared it to information from YSearch.org." https://wtop.com/national/2018/04/th...ed-crack-case/

    I sent over my y-DNA to YSearch and I always read on Family Tree that YSearch is basically defunct, that it has no one person or group keeping it apace with Family Tree or any other company. I wonder who the FTDNA spokesperson is that law enforcement talked to? We always hear that 12 Marker matches are useless; now it seems they're good enough for subpoena purposes. I'm Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype and (just checked) I have 6,974 12 Marker matches. This number changes every couple of days.

    Interesting viewpoint:

    "DNA is a matter of science, not conjecture. DNA does not lie or change its story. DNA suffers no sudden loss of memory, and has no need to plead the Fifth Amendment. The value of DNA as tool to convict the guilty and clear the innocent outweighs the concerns over privacy." http://dailycaller.com/2018/05/11/ge...ant-it-barred/

    I know at least one admin from a Family Tree project I'm in deleted his Family Tree, removed his photo from his Profile, and actually took his name down and just uses his initials when he posts to projects. Comments found in other projects include suppositions that it's great to have your DNA on file to catch crooks and send your DNA in to the FBI and get a bounty if it's useful in catching a perp. Certainly that last was made in jest. This link was posted in one: https://dna-explained.com/2018/04/30...iller-and-dna/

    However this ends, our days of being simple amateur online genealogists are soon to be over.
    "Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ear..."

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiousII View Post
    Remember DNA testing is illegal in France
    Any DNA test that can identify a father is illegal in France.

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  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiousII View Post
    DeAngelo's attorney isn't wanting to let info on how he was caught let loose to the public: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...514-story.html
    If you were his attorney, would you not want to prevent the public (and any potential jurors) prejudging the case?
    The stuff in the press might be bad enough, but the stuff in the legal documents is surely part of the case.

    There are two aspects in this whole situation that seem to be ignored in most comments:
    1) there is already a massive CODIS database available to Law Enforcement (LE) that can be used to identify family.
    LE is also using additional autosomal tools to estimate appearance, ethnicity and other characteristics.
    (Heaps of papers on this stuff in forensic journals.)
    2) the DNA was first used in this case to RELEASE an innocent person who had been imprisoned for decades in connection with this case.
    (There seems to be no discussion at all about why this person had been convicted and what had been in error and what if any compensation might be being offered.)

    Also - comments that DNA might be carried over to an innocent person, or used to fit someone up relate to previous cases and would not be any easier with genetic genealogy.
    LE still needs to use a CODIS type or similar highly discriminating test to exclude anyone else.
    Not to mention all of that information most people leave on social media or exercise sites. Noone seems to be campaigning to have that unavailable to LE - or are they?

    We always hear that 12 Marker matches are useless; now it seems they're good enough for subpoena purposes. I'm Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype and (just checked) I have 6,974 12 Marker matches.
    So you could easily challenge a subpoena based on a 12 marker match.
    Really, that's like saying the perp has the surname "Smith" and you do too.

    I have ZERO matches at 12 markers due to a rare haplotype.
    If someone turns up as a match, then they are certainly related.
    But statistically they are probably distant cousins: far more evidence would be required in an eventual court case, but with me LE would probably have grounds for getting a sample from me.

    I think some people should read up on old cases where a person was brought into court and few words were said before someone was condemned to death in as little as 15 minutes.
    With the sentence being carried out not long afterwards without the chance of appeal.
    Modern system might be imperfect but it has improved.
    Last edited by Saetro; 05-15-2018 at 12:13 AM.

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  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    If you were his attorney, would you not want to prevent the public (and any potential jurors) prejudging the case?
    Of course not, good point. But you know the newshounds are going to be wanting to follow the whole show along as it's happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    There are two aspects in this whole situation that seem to be ignored in most comments:
    1) there is already a massive CODIS database available to Law Enforcement (LE) that can be used to identify family.
    LE is also using additional autosomal tools to estimate appearance, ethnicity and other characteristics.
    (Heaps of papers on this stuff in forensic journals.)
    Have you ever taken an autosomal DNA test from a company that uses that process? DNA Tribes is one. Quite a bit different from the process Family Tree uses and some startling differences in the results. I don't think CODIS is preferable, but that's what LE uses at the moment and the CODIS autosomal test I took (from another company) is years old now, so maybe I'm not being fair about it. But I certainly wouldn't want to put money into a CODIS test again when I can use Family Tree or one of its competitors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    2) the DNA was first used in this case to RELEASE an innocent person who had been imprisoned for decades in connection with this case.
    (There seems to be no discussion at all about why this person had been convicted and what had been in error and what if any compensation might be being offered.)
    I've found articles about a suspect in a nursing home that was tested for GSK DNA, but was cleared after the results came back. I haven't found anything about anyone being convicted for EAR/GSK crimes, though. Do you have a link?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    Also - comments that DNA might be carried over to an innocent person, or used to fit someone up relate to previous cases and would not be any easier with genetic genealogy.
    LE still needs to use a CODIS type or similar highly discriminating test to exclude anyone else.
    Not to mention all of that information most people leave on social media or exercise sites. No one seems to be campaigning to have that unavailable to LE - or are they?
    I have an old post around this site somewhere about synthetic DNA (AGTC and now XY) when it hit the news a year ago, wish I could find it now. This is on the Web: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_gene_synthesis and this is a good article: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-.../#.WvowU9-YUb0

    There's more, I'm sure you can find better. But from what I remember from the article I read a year ago yes, your DNA can be replicated. That's terrifying, but true. There was something in the article that said science can tell the difference between natural DNA and a new product, something about the synthesis but I could be remembering incorrectly. So no, DNA is not the perfect crime-solving tool it's purported to be as it can be produced and placed wherever Dr. Evil Dude wants, except his nemesis Dr. Nice Man can (or should be able to) see where the alteration takes place in the chain. Something like that and my post is around here somewhere; I'll see if I can find it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    So you could easily challenge a subpoena based on a 12 marker match.
    Really, that's like saying the perp has the surname "Smith" and you do too.
    That seems to be correct at this writing, true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    I think some people should read up on old cases where a person was brought into court and few words were said before someone was condemned to death in as little as 15 minutes.
    With the sentence being carried out not long afterwards without the chance of appeal.
    Modern system might be imperfect but it has improved.
    You're right again, and I found this: https://www.wired.com/story/detectiv...sing-genetics/

    "After 33 days in police custody a DNA test cleared Michael Usry, and Ancestry has since shuttered the database."

    Arrested for a familial DNA match, but then cleared after he took a test. "But it highlighted two big potential problems with this kind of familial searching." That's an understatement.
    "Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ear..."

  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    the DNA was first used in this case to RELEASE an innocent person who had been imprisoned for decades in connection with this case.
    (There seems to be no discussion at all about why this person had been convicted and what had been in error and what if any compensation might be being offered.)
    I found this, it may be the person you're referring to: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.c18337a8fdaf and http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...124-story.html

    From what I can figure out, the murder itself hasn't been definitively laid on DeAngelo yet. But that argument can be used on a lot of crimes that LE are trying to put on him now that he's in jail. That's typical LE tactics: if they grab someone for one thing, they'll try to lay as many similar crimes on that person as they can.

    But actually one of the GSK's crimes? Could be, but then this:

    "Deputy Chief Joseph May, of the Simi Valley Police Department, told CBS Los Angeles it is 'within the realm of possibility that he could be a suspect in our case.' The time periods for the crimes match up, and so do the general locations. 'He is suspected of committing a homicide in Ventura County,' May said. 'We’re part of Ventura County.'”

    "Within the realm of possibility" is grasping, "He is suspected of committing a homicide in Ventura County. We're part of Ventura County." Well, there it is. GSK's suspected of committing crimes in Ventura County and, yes, there was a crime there as a matter of fact. Done deal, case closed.

    Noticed all the furor at Family Tree since the GDPR started a couple of days ago? I think the fair and impartial trial of DeAngelo is tantamount to all our safety and privacy with our genetic information that Family Tree, GEDMatch, YSearch (which is defunct now according to emails from Family Tree) for if he cannot have a fair trial, then neither will our digital chromosomes on file with these companies. But I'm in the United States and I may not have the same viewpoint on crime and guilt as other countries have. That could be a personal problem of mine, but I imagine Craig Coley probably thinks along the same lines. I also imagine that the real GSK's victims would also share that belief as I suspect that they'd wish their true killer be punished rather than a stranger. Coley was Wicht's ex-boyfriend, and even if she didn't carry the same sentiments for him during their break-up as she did when they were together, she may not have wished to see him lose the majority of his life to confinement for her death.

    Personally I believe that wrongful imprisonment for an horrendous crime that you did not commit is one of the worst things that can happen to a citizen of the United States. In this day of equality between the sexes, the removal of fathers from the American family ("I'm tired of angry fathers!" is a quote from the Web I've remembered for maybe 14 years now), and eye witnesses who either deliberately lie or who distort their testimony for cash, drugs, or other reasons have simply destroyed the lives of too many people for that type of law enforcement to continue. We're nearing the science that can eliminate human error and fickleness from witness court testimony and, once here, that science should be implemented immediately. The stigma and ostracization that follows confinement for a crimes of this nature, crimes against women, are so debilitating now in the days of " no possible rehab for sex offenders" makes the false imprisonment after a wrongful conviction unendurable by a man, there is no way to recompense him after realizing the depths of human depravity exist on both sides of the wall.

    But science has also found a way to create DNA, like I mentioned before. I think the article I found a while back spoke of methylation (not "synthesis" as I misquoted before) as a method for determining if DNA was faked or real; this may further that: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9217255

    But if crime does figure a way around methylation evidence, then it's all back to the basics in crime detection. This nation will always have enraged fathers as long as crime like those the GSK is accused of happens. Countries like France can ban parental genetic testing but it will never eradicate human emotion from the species, the will to procreate also engenders the emotion of love. French is simply not a romantic language any longer, I say we're back to English.
    Last edited by curiousII; 05-28-2018 at 04:22 AM. Reason: Just because
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  12. #29
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    DeAngelo charged with another homicide:

    https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/...nother-murder/



    Still no comments from Gov. Brown. I'm sorry, but that's really wrong.
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  13. #30
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    And even more wrong: All the homicides from every county DeAngelo was charged in are to be consolidated into one single trial in a Sacramento County trial: https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/cr...217060610.html

    He can plea bargain all individual counts down to one? He's convicted of one, he's convicted of all? If he's not guilty of one, he's not guilty of all? These are murder charges, not traffic tickets.

    There was a effort to let the state's citizens vote on whether to break the state into smaller sections; not there now. They should charge DeAngelo with that, too. His governor did it.
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