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Thread: Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

  1. #8891
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamil154 View Post
    Yes, that makes more sense in your case, his base SA ancestry just seems more tilted in a UP direction to me. For some reason UP has the most legitimate foreign ancestral claims when it comes to Syed ancestry. Do you have his Y-dna clade? Also you mentioned Qizilbash in DM's and IIRC they were Turkmens so that could well be it.
    Y clade for my uncle would be Y6 but i will probably order something from Yseq to go further. Yes, I was thinking could be possible Qizilbash ancestor somewhere and they were Turkmens who settled in UP for a while I believe. From there it seems like they moved on to Punjab like Muzaffar Ali Khan Qizilbash

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Raza94 For This Useful Post:

     kamil154 (08-02-2021),  Kapisa (08-03-2021)

  3. #8892
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    Distances from my simulated PKHG (Kelteminar precursor) component compared with Vonyuchka/Progress En and Yamanaya. It is clear that the populations to the east of the Caspian shared incredible affinity and continuity with En Steppe populations.


    Distance to: PKHG
    0.16618482 Darginian
    0.16936517 Kubachinian
    0.17117812 Lak
    0.17233247 Avar
    0.17269950 Tajik_Rushan
    0.17363916 Tajik_Shugnan
    0.17389370 Kaitag
    0.17402082 Kalash
    0.17410997 Tajik_Ishkashim
    0.17710098 Tajik
    0.17775953 Tajik_Yagnobi
    0.17979523 Tabasaran
    0.18216772 Kho_Singanali
    0.18273478 Chechen
    0.18410060 North_Ossetian
    0.18444813 Balkar
    0.18468871 Ingushian
    0.18724352 Circassian
    0.18724739 Karachay
    0.18832240 Abazin
    0.18855103 Cherkes
    0.18954242 Ossetian
    0.19041798 Uthmankhel
    0.19107537 Kabardin
    0.19161866 Kumyk
    0.19320486 Tarkalani
    0.19520696 Adygei
    0.19565116 Yusufzai
    0.19680221 Pashtun
    0.19894007 Jatt_Pathak
    0.19941915 Ror
    0.20070016 Azeri_Dagestan
    0.20185947 Iranian_Turkmen
    0.20251227 Iranian_Baloch
    0.20300510 Kamboj
    0.20389598 Kohistani
    0.20600541 Burusho
    0.20609792 Iranian_Mazandarani
    0.20636781 Abkhasian
    0.20652869 Balochi
    0.20771984 Brahui
    0.20966111 Turkmen
    0.21013652 Parsi_Pakistan
    0.21019955 Khatri
    0.21074708 Punjabi_Jatt
    0.21151005 Iranian_Fars
    0.21216618 Iranian_Bandari
    0.21216791 Parsi_India
    0.21246890 Iranian_Persian
    0.21319764 Kashmiri_Pandit
    0.21346624 Punjabi_Sikh_India
    0.21392361 Iranian_Seyyed
    0.21467077 Iranian_Zoroastrian
    0.21659284 Makrani
    0.21670117 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
    0.21683356 Turkish_South
    0.21701536 Azeri_Turkey
    0.21744181 Azeri
    0.21778151 Gujar_Pakistan
    0.21798354 Talysh_Azerbaijan
    0.21803729 Besermyan
    0.21893929 Turkish_North
    0.21952976 Sindhi
    0.22079244 Turkish_Northwest
    0.22089823 Georgian_Imer
    0.22115913 Udmurt
    0.22285660 Turkish_Balikesir
    0.22333417 Iranian_Lor
    0.22373364 Zaza_Dersim
    0.22444411 Tatar_Kazan
    0.22474078 Tatar_Lipka
    0.22499899 Ezid
    0.22568082 Turkish_Aydin
    0.22574186 Turkish_Central
    0.22703170 Kurdish


    Distance to: Vonyuchka_En:Average
    0.11195809 Darginian
    0.11444954 Tajik_Rushan
    0.11617124 Kubachinian
    0.11911382 Kaitag
    0.11911435 Lak
    0.11946363 Avar
    0.11949191 Tajik_Shugnan
    0.12257779 Tajik_Yagnobi
    0.12649601 Tabasaran
    0.12835297 Tajik_Ishkashim
    0.14269687 Kalash
    0.14458476 Chechen
    0.14716808 Tajik
    0.15258262 Ingushian
    0.15277286 Balkar
    0.15334764 Kho_Singanali
    0.15459980 Jatt_Pathak
    0.15494887 Ror
    0.15669879 Kumyk
    0.15679624 Cherkes
    0.15702945 Uthmankhel
    0.15780165 Tarkalani
    0.15893079 Circassian
    0.15910432 Karachay
    0.15966597 Abazin
    0.16058176 Kabardin
    0.16096963 North_Ossetian
    0.16320390 Adygei
    0.16323899 Yusufzai
    0.16552935 Komi
    0.16629879 Azeri_Dagestan
    0.16639930 Pashtun
    0.16648783 Mordovian
    0.16770965 Ossetian
    0.16771350 Tatar_Mishar
    0.17022867 Tatar_Kazan
    0.17053958 Balochi
    0.17089016 Russian_Kostroma
    0.17149327 Iranian_Baloch
    0.17197887 Besermyan
    0.17304512 Brahui
    0.17472827 Kamboj
    0.17536919 Russian_Tver
    0.17542579 Ingrian
    0.17559556 Iranian_Bandari
    0.17567847 Karelian
    0.17630781 Russian_Kursk
    0.17642076 Russian_Pinega
    0.17645105 Punjabi_Jatt
    0.17672301 Finnish_East
    0.17673021 Finnish
    0.17698475 Iranian_Zoroastrian
    0.17744317 Iranian_Mazandarani
    0.17744906 Vepsian
    0.17762699 Udmurt
    0.17774147 Moldovan_o
    0.17836621 Russian_Orel
    0.17894875 Iranian_Fars
    0.17900245 Iranian_Persian
    0.17950132 Makrani
    0.18071624 Cossack_Kuban
    0.18101496 Parsi_Pakistan
    0.18238292 Iranian_Seyyed
    0.18360937 Parsi_India
    0.18381523 Khatri
    0.18383670 Ukrainian
    0.18383681 Russian_Voronez
    0.18386329 Kohistani
    0.18429364 Turkish_Deliorman
    0.18464407 Cossack_Ukrainian
    0.18530132 Russian_Smolensk
    0.18565278 Punjabi_Sikh_India
    0.18615976 Estonian
    0.18636873 Zaza_Dersim
    0.18661728 Belarusian


    Distance to: Progress_En:Average
    0.12238285 Tajik_Rushan
    0.12575874 Darginian
    0.12700644 Tajik_Shugnan
    0.13130830 Kubachinian
    0.13313810 Kaitag
    0.13364788 Avar
    0.13391764 Lak
    0.13441802 Tajik_Yagnobi
    0.13522174 Tajik_Ishkashim
    0.14069208 Tabasaran
    0.15198961 Kalash
    0.15507255 Tajik
    0.15567758 Komi
    0.15707074 Jatt_Pathak
    0.15811887 Ror
    0.15920956 Chechen
    0.15984526 Kho_Singanali
    0.16016550 Mordovian
    0.16207353 Besermyan
    0.16247964 Tatar_Mishar
    0.16355136 Russian_Kostroma
    0.16468773 Tatar_Kazan
    0.16566467 Uthmankhel
    0.16614513 Karelian
    0.16641110 Finnish_East
    0.16649880 Ingrian
    0.16669417 Udmurt
    0.16706758 Tarkalani
    0.16711845 Russian_Pinega
    0.16743946 Balkar
    0.16767236 Ingushian
    0.16778096 Finnish
    0.16788052 Vepsian
    0.16966345 Russian_Tver
    0.17017213 Kumyk
    0.17051228 Cherkes
    0.17169663 Yusufzai
    0.17179794 Russian_Kursk
    0.17278836 Karachay
    0.17288291 Circassian
    0.17353375 Abazin
    0.17369382 Kabardin
    0.17403458 Russian_Orel
    0.17417872 Pashtun
    0.17497275 Moldovan_o
    0.17537896 Cossack_Kuban
    0.17579086 Saami_Kola
    0.17638281 North_Ossetian
    0.17815309 Estonian
    0.17838625 Adygei
    0.17959897 Russian_Voronez
    0.18005549 Ukrainian
    0.18015801 Cossack_Ukrainian
    0.18090230 Lithuanian_PA
    0.18094386 Russian_Smolensk
    0.18143177 Latvian
    0.18152836 Belarusian
    0.18182373 Punjabi_Jatt
    0.18187525 Azeri_Dagestan
    0.18202934 Kamboj
    0.18242871 Lithuanian_PZ
    0.18270545 Swedish
    0.18292961 Lithuanian_VZ
    0.18298251 Polish
    0.18301850 Lithuanian_RA
    0.18307688 Icelandic
    0.18331474 Shetlandic
    0.18348998 Norwegian
    0.18376303 Lithuanian_VA
    0.18396721 Lithuanian_SZ
    0.18399550 Ossetian
    0.18462873 Slovakian
    0.18488330 Irish
    0.18490096 Danish
    0.18558989 Czech


    Distance to: Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus:Average
    0.11345700 Tajik_Rushan
    0.11543160 Darginian
    0.11959588 Tajik_Shugnan
    0.12164564 Kaitag
    0.12166623 Kubachinian
    0.12257921 Avar
    0.12317114 Lak
    0.12380535 Tajik_Yagnobi
    0.12878182 Tabasaran
    0.13055530 Tajik_Ishkashim
    0.13825325 Komi
    0.13949066 Mordovian
    0.14249098 Russian_Kostroma
    0.14385592 Tatar_Mishar
    0.14493432 Ingrian
    0.14526915 Karelian
    0.14547527 Finnish_East
    0.14610618 Finnish
    0.14737471 Tajik
    0.14741886 Vepsian
    0.14743646 Russian_Pinega
    0.14814145 Tatar_Kazan
    0.14828219 Chechen
    0.14854477 Russian_Tver
    0.14909361 Besermyan
    0.15071608 Russian_Kursk
    0.15289557 Cossack_Kuban
    0.15311994 Russian_Orel
    0.15341725 Moldovan_o
    0.15473918 Kalash
    0.15562216 Udmurt
    0.15618574 Balkar
    0.15682452 Ingushian
    0.15700825 Estonian
    0.15731446 Jatt_Pathak
    0.15748386 Kumyk
    0.15841152 Ror
    0.15857147 Russian_Voronez
    0.15878909 Ukrainian
    0.15903809 Cherkes
    0.15912091 Cossack_Ukrainian
    0.15936765 Saami_Kola
    0.15964144 Swedish
    0.16018902 Icelandic
    0.16027789 Russian_Smolensk
    0.16030316 Norwegian
    0.16036341 Lithuanian_PA
    0.16045423 Kho_Singanali
    0.16064492 Shetlandic
    0.16098834 Belarusian
    0.16125677 Polish
    0.16165613 Karachay
    0.16165737 Latvian
    0.16175752 Circassian
    0.16177534 Danish
    0.16188971 Kabardin
    0.16205923 Irish
    0.16241131 Abazin
    0.16248933 Slovakian
    0.16257654 Lithuanian_PZ
    0.16281957 Dutch
    0.16292093 Lithuanian_RA
    0.16293114 Lithuanian_VA
    0.16305492 Lithuanian_VZ
    0.16343742 Orcadian
    0.16345309 Czech
    0.16372891 Scottish
    0.16410263 Lithuanian_SZ
    0.16460815 Ukrainian_B
    0.16499634 German_East
    0.16530521 Uthmankhel
    0.16532806 Afrikaner
    0.16645343 Tarkalani
    0.16675657 North_Ossetian
    0.16684020 Hungarian
    Mehrgarh v2.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.1
    Indo-Turanian Farmer (N/LCA): 33.6 (Mehrgarh Pre-Pottery: 19.2 + Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist: 14.4)
    South Asian HG (MP): 22.2
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 17.6
    Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (EBA): 16
    Pamir Knot HG (LM): 10.2

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to kamil154 For This Useful Post:

     Kaazi (08-04-2021)

  5. #8893
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    It's a weird situation but it almost seems that there very archaic Upper Paleo/Mesolithic Dzudzuana-related ancestral layer dormant at lower latitudes in the mountainous folds of both the Caucasus and Pamirs respectively, and some sort of climatic warming event allowed these HG populations to move North and interact with EHG and WSHG respectively based on longitudinal position, creating the varieties we see above.
    Last edited by kamil154; 08-04-2021 at 07:53 AM.
    Mehrgarh v2.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.1
    Indo-Turanian Farmer (N/LCA): 33.6 (Mehrgarh Pre-Pottery: 19.2 + Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist: 14.4)
    South Asian HG (MP): 22.2
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 17.6
    Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (EBA): 16
    Pamir Knot HG (LM): 10.2

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  7. #8894
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamil154 View Post
    Distances from my simulated PKHG (Kelteminar precursor) component compared with Vonyuchka/Progress En and Yamanaya. It is clear that the populations to the east of the Caspian shared incredible affinity and continuity with En Steppe populations.


    Distance to: PKHG
    0.16618482 Darginian
    0.16936517 Kubachinian
    0.17117812 Lak
    0.17233247 Avar
    0.17269950 Tajik_Rushan
    0.17363916 Tajik_Shugnan
    0.17389370 Kaitag
    0.17402082 Kalash
    0.17410997 Tajik_Ishkashim
    0.17710098 Tajik
    0.17775953 Tajik_Yagnobi
    0.17979523 Tabasaran
    0.18216772 Kho_Singanali
    0.18273478 Chechen
    0.18410060 North_Ossetian
    0.18444813 Balkar
    0.18468871 Ingushian
    0.18724352 Circassian
    0.18724739 Karachay
    0.18832240 Abazin
    0.18855103 Cherkes
    0.18954242 Ossetian
    0.19041798 Uthmankhel
    0.19107537 Kabardin
    0.19161866 Kumyk
    0.19320486 Tarkalani
    0.19520696 Adygei
    0.19565116 Yusufzai
    0.19680221 Pashtun
    0.19894007 Jatt_Pathak
    0.19941915 Ror
    0.20070016 Azeri_Dagestan
    0.20185947 Iranian_Turkmen
    0.20251227 Iranian_Baloch
    0.20300510 Kamboj
    0.20389598 Kohistani
    0.20600541 Burusho
    0.20609792 Iranian_Mazandarani
    0.20636781 Abkhasian
    0.20652869 Balochi
    0.20771984 Brahui
    0.20966111 Turkmen
    0.21013652 Parsi_Pakistan
    0.21019955 Khatri
    0.21074708 Punjabi_Jatt
    0.21151005 Iranian_Fars
    0.21216618 Iranian_Bandari
    0.21216791 Parsi_India
    0.21246890 Iranian_Persian
    0.21319764 Kashmiri_Pandit
    0.21346624 Punjabi_Sikh_India
    0.21392361 Iranian_Seyyed
    0.21467077 Iranian_Zoroastrian
    0.21659284 Makrani
    0.21670117 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
    0.21683356 Turkish_South
    0.21701536 Azeri_Turkey
    0.21744181 Azeri
    0.21778151 Gujar_Pakistan
    0.21798354 Talysh_Azerbaijan
    0.21803729 Besermyan
    0.21893929 Turkish_North
    0.21952976 Sindhi
    0.22079244 Turkish_Northwest
    0.22089823 Georgian_Imer
    0.22115913 Udmurt
    0.22285660 Turkish_Balikesir
    0.22333417 Iranian_Lor
    0.22373364 Zaza_Dersim
    0.22444411 Tatar_Kazan
    0.22474078 Tatar_Lipka
    0.22499899 Ezid
    0.22568082 Turkish_Aydin
    0.22574186 Turkish_Central
    0.22703170 Kurdish


    Distance to: Vonyuchka_En:Average
    0.11195809 Darginian
    0.11444954 Tajik_Rushan
    0.11617124 Kubachinian
    0.11911382 Kaitag
    0.11911435 Lak
    0.11946363 Avar
    0.11949191 Tajik_Shugnan
    0.12257779 Tajik_Yagnobi
    0.12649601 Tabasaran
    0.12835297 Tajik_Ishkashim
    0.14269687 Kalash
    0.14458476 Chechen
    0.14716808 Tajik
    0.15258262 Ingushian
    0.15277286 Balkar
    0.15334764 Kho_Singanali
    0.15459980 Jatt_Pathak
    0.15494887 Ror
    0.15669879 Kumyk
    0.15679624 Cherkes
    0.15702945 Uthmankhel
    0.15780165 Tarkalani
    0.15893079 Circassian
    0.15910432 Karachay
    0.15966597 Abazin
    0.16058176 Kabardin
    0.16096963 North_Ossetian
    0.16320390 Adygei
    0.16323899 Yusufzai
    0.16552935 Komi
    0.16629879 Azeri_Dagestan
    0.16639930 Pashtun
    0.16648783 Mordovian
    0.16770965 Ossetian
    0.16771350 Tatar_Mishar
    0.17022867 Tatar_Kazan
    0.17053958 Balochi
    0.17089016 Russian_Kostroma
    0.17149327 Iranian_Baloch
    0.17197887 Besermyan
    0.17304512 Brahui
    0.17472827 Kamboj
    0.17536919 Russian_Tver
    0.17542579 Ingrian
    0.17559556 Iranian_Bandari
    0.17567847 Karelian
    0.17630781 Russian_Kursk
    0.17642076 Russian_Pinega
    0.17645105 Punjabi_Jatt
    0.17672301 Finnish_East
    0.17673021 Finnish
    0.17698475 Iranian_Zoroastrian
    0.17744317 Iranian_Mazandarani
    0.17744906 Vepsian
    0.17762699 Udmurt
    0.17774147 Moldovan_o
    0.17836621 Russian_Orel
    0.17894875 Iranian_Fars
    0.17900245 Iranian_Persian
    0.17950132 Makrani
    0.18071624 Cossack_Kuban
    0.18101496 Parsi_Pakistan
    0.18238292 Iranian_Seyyed
    0.18360937 Parsi_India
    0.18381523 Khatri
    0.18383670 Ukrainian
    0.18383681 Russian_Voronez
    0.18386329 Kohistani
    0.18429364 Turkish_Deliorman
    0.18464407 Cossack_Ukrainian
    0.18530132 Russian_Smolensk
    0.18565278 Punjabi_Sikh_India
    0.18615976 Estonian
    0.18636873 Zaza_Dersim
    0.18661728 Belarusian


    Distance to: Progress_En:Average
    0.12238285 Tajik_Rushan
    0.12575874 Darginian
    0.12700644 Tajik_Shugnan
    0.13130830 Kubachinian
    0.13313810 Kaitag
    0.13364788 Avar
    0.13391764 Lak
    0.13441802 Tajik_Yagnobi
    0.13522174 Tajik_Ishkashim
    0.14069208 Tabasaran
    0.15198961 Kalash
    0.15507255 Tajik
    0.15567758 Komi
    0.15707074 Jatt_Pathak
    0.15811887 Ror
    0.15920956 Chechen
    0.15984526 Kho_Singanali
    0.16016550 Mordovian
    0.16207353 Besermyan
    0.16247964 Tatar_Mishar
    0.16355136 Russian_Kostroma
    0.16468773 Tatar_Kazan
    0.16566467 Uthmankhel
    0.16614513 Karelian
    0.16641110 Finnish_East
    0.16649880 Ingrian
    0.16669417 Udmurt
    0.16706758 Tarkalani
    0.16711845 Russian_Pinega
    0.16743946 Balkar
    0.16767236 Ingushian
    0.16778096 Finnish
    0.16788052 Vepsian
    0.16966345 Russian_Tver
    0.17017213 Kumyk
    0.17051228 Cherkes
    0.17169663 Yusufzai
    0.17179794 Russian_Kursk
    0.17278836 Karachay
    0.17288291 Circassian
    0.17353375 Abazin
    0.17369382 Kabardin
    0.17403458 Russian_Orel
    0.17417872 Pashtun
    0.17497275 Moldovan_o
    0.17537896 Cossack_Kuban
    0.17579086 Saami_Kola
    0.17638281 North_Ossetian
    0.17815309 Estonian
    0.17838625 Adygei
    0.17959897 Russian_Voronez
    0.18005549 Ukrainian
    0.18015801 Cossack_Ukrainian
    0.18090230 Lithuanian_PA
    0.18094386 Russian_Smolensk
    0.18143177 Latvian
    0.18152836 Belarusian
    0.18182373 Punjabi_Jatt
    0.18187525 Azeri_Dagestan
    0.18202934 Kamboj
    0.18242871 Lithuanian_PZ
    0.18270545 Swedish
    0.18292961 Lithuanian_VZ
    0.18298251 Polish
    0.18301850 Lithuanian_RA
    0.18307688 Icelandic
    0.18331474 Shetlandic
    0.18348998 Norwegian
    0.18376303 Lithuanian_VA
    0.18396721 Lithuanian_SZ
    0.18399550 Ossetian
    0.18462873 Slovakian
    0.18488330 Irish
    0.18490096 Danish
    0.18558989 Czech


    Distance to: Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus:Average
    0.11345700 Tajik_Rushan
    0.11543160 Darginian
    0.11959588 Tajik_Shugnan
    0.12164564 Kaitag
    0.12166623 Kubachinian
    0.12257921 Avar
    0.12317114 Lak
    0.12380535 Tajik_Yagnobi
    0.12878182 Tabasaran
    0.13055530 Tajik_Ishkashim
    0.13825325 Komi
    0.13949066 Mordovian
    0.14249098 Russian_Kostroma
    0.14385592 Tatar_Mishar
    0.14493432 Ingrian
    0.14526915 Karelian
    0.14547527 Finnish_East
    0.14610618 Finnish
    0.14737471 Tajik
    0.14741886 Vepsian
    0.14743646 Russian_Pinega
    0.14814145 Tatar_Kazan
    0.14828219 Chechen
    0.14854477 Russian_Tver
    0.14909361 Besermyan
    0.15071608 Russian_Kursk
    0.15289557 Cossack_Kuban
    0.15311994 Russian_Orel
    0.15341725 Moldovan_o
    0.15473918 Kalash
    0.15562216 Udmurt
    0.15618574 Balkar
    0.15682452 Ingushian
    0.15700825 Estonian
    0.15731446 Jatt_Pathak
    0.15748386 Kumyk
    0.15841152 Ror
    0.15857147 Russian_Voronez
    0.15878909 Ukrainian
    0.15903809 Cherkes
    0.15912091 Cossack_Ukrainian
    0.15936765 Saami_Kola
    0.15964144 Swedish
    0.16018902 Icelandic
    0.16027789 Russian_Smolensk
    0.16030316 Norwegian
    0.16036341 Lithuanian_PA
    0.16045423 Kho_Singanali
    0.16064492 Shetlandic
    0.16098834 Belarusian
    0.16125677 Polish
    0.16165613 Karachay
    0.16165737 Latvian
    0.16175752 Circassian
    0.16177534 Danish
    0.16188971 Kabardin
    0.16205923 Irish
    0.16241131 Abazin
    0.16248933 Slovakian
    0.16257654 Lithuanian_PZ
    0.16281957 Dutch
    0.16292093 Lithuanian_RA
    0.16293114 Lithuanian_VA
    0.16305492 Lithuanian_VZ
    0.16343742 Orcadian
    0.16345309 Czech
    0.16372891 Scottish
    0.16410263 Lithuanian_SZ
    0.16460815 Ukrainian_B
    0.16499634 German_East
    0.16530521 Uthmankhel
    0.16532806 Afrikaner
    0.16645343 Tarkalani
    0.16675657 North_Ossetian
    0.16684020 Hungarian
    Most of the "WSHG" ancestry in southern central asia (and by extension South Asia) comes from populations who like those found at Kumsay and Mereke were admixed between WSHG proper and steppe_en.

    Taking in mind the geograpghy of Central Asia it would've been very hard for foragers to directly cross the steppes, so you can assume most movements were guided by water bodies.

    Considering WSHG ancestry reached into the Volga-Caspian region really early on (pottery neolithic) it is possible that the WSHG ancestry went counter clockwise into Central Asia, with populations traveling down the Ural river and Caspian sea reaching into Central Asia.

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  9. #8895
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Most of the "WSHG" ancestry in southern central asia (and by extension South Asia) comes from populations who like those found at Kumsay and Mereke were admixed between WSHG proper and steppe_en.

    Taking in mind the geograpghy of Central Asia it would've been very hard for foragers to directly cross the steppes, so you can assume most movements were guided by water bodies.

    Considering WSHG ancestry reached into the Volga-Caspian region really early on (pottery neolithic) it is possible that the WSHG ancestry went counter clockwise into Central Asia, with populations traveling down the Ural river and Caspian sea reaching into Central Asia.
    There is a paucity of samples from South Asia so it's hard to argue much, but WSHG was probably already there in South Asia a lot earlier than Pre-Pottery N (given our proximity to the WSHG source), and no the Mereke/Botai type vectors are not the only point of contact with WSHG. If you look at IVCp samples infact SIS BA1 is the most EHG shifted, SIS BA2 is 3x as much WSHG shifted and SISBA3 is even more WSHG shifted, so if anything there is a proportional increase in WSHG with AASI. There seems to be some direct Trans-Himalayan input into NE-Indian ethnicities such as, Assamese, Bihari, Bengali, Burmese and Xinjiang/Tibet prior to Yellow River Neolithic type mix was likely AfontovaGora3 mixed with some Basal sort of East Eurasian (essentially an EHG unadmixed version of WSHG).
    Last edited by kamil154; 08-04-2021 at 01:53 PM.
    Mehrgarh v2.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.1
    Indo-Turanian Farmer (N/LCA): 33.6 (Mehrgarh Pre-Pottery: 19.2 + Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist: 14.4)
    South Asian HG (MP): 22.2
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 17.6
    Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (EBA): 16
    Pamir Knot HG (LM): 10.2

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamil154 View Post
    There is a paucity of samples from South Asia so it's hard to argue much, but WSHG was probably already there in South Asia a lot earlier than Pre-Pottery N (given our proximity to the WSHG source), and no the Mereke/Botai type vectors are not the only point of contact with WSHG. If you look at IVCp samples infact SIS BA1 is the most EHG shifted, SIS BA2 is more WSHG shifted and SISBA3 is the most WSHG shifted, so if anything there is a proportional increase in WSHG with AASI. There seems to be some direct Trans-Himalayan input into NE-Indian ethnicities such as, Assamese, Bihari, Bengali, Burmese and it seems Xinjiang/Tibet prior to Yellow River Neolithic type mix was mostly AfontovaGora3 mixed with some Basal sort of East Eurasian (essentially a an EHG unadmixed version of WSHG).
    Are you not confusing ANE with WSHG?

    I don't think you can have actual West-Siberian Neolithic hunter-gatherer ancestry that predates the western siberian neolithic period, no?

    given our proximity to the WSHG source
    I'm sorry I don't understand this. WSHG is derived from ANE populations mixing with an unknown east siberian population, probably those who came with pottery considering the timelines in addition to also having additional European hunter-gatherer ancestry. All of that seems to have taken place pretty far from South Asia.

    The archaeological picture of Xinjiang doesn't really showcase much of anything in regards to mesolithic populations so you can assume it was mostly empty and its only with the onset of agriculture and pastoralism that populations really settled there and even then not majorly so. Currently all the samples from Xinjiang show similar ancestry to the WSHG-rich populations on the Tian Shan and Pamirs.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 08-04-2021 at 02:05 PM.

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  13. #8897
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    The spread of Haplogroup R2 in South Asia also does not seem to match the West Asian Haplogroups such as J2, L2 etc, it seems to have much deeper penetration into far eastern regions, including showing up significantly in Austro-Asiatic speakers. We are more proximal to the R2 source populations than Ganj Dareh, and R2 was likely only being reinforced by Neolithic farmer input from the west it likely was already present in South Asia.
    Mehrgarh v2.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.1
    Indo-Turanian Farmer (N/LCA): 33.6 (Mehrgarh Pre-Pottery: 19.2 + Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist: 14.4)
    South Asian HG (MP): 22.2
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 17.6
    Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (EBA): 16
    Pamir Knot HG (LM): 10.2

  14. #8898
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamil154 View Post
    Here's a weak attempt using Chokhopani and AASI Gonur2. It's pretty unusable though, we'll need to wait for some actual studies from that region.

    ESAHG,-0.21118197,-0.42380836,-0.08588451,0.11727045,0.01220103,-0.07125821,-0.07753548,-0.04530784,0.13877273,-0.03121874,-0.10158008,-0.11906444,0.10063306,-0.05803554,-0.13121303,0.17837621,-0.00402119,0.01295403,-0.0326297,-0.05796195,0.00371933,0.04737935,-0.01086141,-0.0135342,0.10403118

    Distance to: ESAHG
    0.43386940 CHN_Tianyuan
    0.43807886 NPL_Mebrak_2125BP
    0.44301675 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
    0.44339480 Tamang
    0.44372291 Gurung
    0.44419609 Magar
    0.44771921 Kusunda
    0.44856638 Sherpa
    0.44891555 NPL_Samdzong_1500BP
    0.44912269 Rai
    0.44945306 Tibetan_Shigatse
    0.45085542 Tripuri
    0.45139224 Tibetan_Shannan
    0.45223782 Tibetan_Nagqu
    0.45238609 Jamatia
    0.45389371 Tibetan_Lhasa
    0.45426491 Tibetan_Chamdo
    0.45462694 Tibetan_Xunhua
    0.45634293 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
    0.45656637 Burmese
    0.45707694 LAO_Hoabinhian
    0.45728890 Onge
    0.45747113 Qiang_Daofu
    0.45794266 Jarawa
    0.45929865 Tharu
    0.45969424 Tibetan_Yajiang
    0.45969888 CHN_Xiaogao_N
    0.46029071 Tibetan_Yunnan
    0.46035216 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    0.46137424 Yi
    0.46171651 Tibetan_Gangcha
    0.46187213 CHN_Yellow_River_MN
    0.46328639 Qiang_Danba
    0.46408673 Tu
    0.46430398 RUS_Sakhalin_HG
    0.46437637 Naxi
    0.46470067 Tibetan_Xinlong
    0.46636836 CHN_Xiaojingshan_N
    0.46759168 CHN_Miaozigou_MN
    0.46788816 CHN_Bianbian_N
    0.46920338 CHN_Western_Liao_River_LN
    0.46953132 Jehai
    0.47058794 CHN_Shimao_LN
    0.47215408 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_IA
    0.47238623 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
    0.47255523 Bonan
    0.47313707 Yugur
    0.47368508 Tibetan_Gannan
    0.47409697 MNG_Xiongnu_East_Asian
    0.47452867 Han_Shandong
    0.47525342 CHN_Western_Liao_River_MN
    0.47538263 Brahmin_Manipuri
    0.47609647 Han_Shanxi
    0.47617368 CHN_Yellow_River_LBIA
    0.47635201 CHN_Qihe_N
    0.47651115 Agta
    0.47676120 CHN_Yumin_N
    0.47686983 MNG_TUM001
    0.47709927 Aeta
    0.47740022 Salar
    0.47742484 Ngadha_Bena
    0.47801141 Dungan
    0.47801168 MNG_YUR001
    0.47812983 CHN_Western_Liao_River_BA
    0.47830950 CHN_Boshan_N
    0.47948869 Han_Henan
    0.47949856 Dongxiang
    0.47952312 Manggarai_Rampasasa
    0.47952421 Lamaholot_Lembata_Hadakewa
    0.47963822 Tujia
    0.47971190 Han_Zhejiang
    0.47976733 Lamaholot_Bama_Flores
    0.47977869 Han_Sichuan
    0.48109401 MNG_central_preBA
    0.48149841 Newar
    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Are you not confusing ANE with WSHG?

    I don't think you can have actual West-Siberian Neolithic hunter-gatherer ancestry that predates the western siberian neolithic period, no?



    I'm sorry I don't understand this. WSHG is derived from ANE populations mixing with an unknown east siberian population, probably those who came with pottery considering the timelines in addition to also having additional European hunter-gatherer ancestry. All of that seems to have taken place pretty far from South Asia.

    The archaeological picture of Xinjiang doesn't really showcase much of anything in regards to mesolithic populations so you can assume it was mostly empty and its only with the onset of agriculture and pastoralism that populations really settled there and even then not majorly so. Currently all the samples from Xinjiang show similar ancestry to the WSHG-rich populations on the Tian Shan and Pamirs.
    If you analyze samples such as Chokhopani, for it's pre-Yellow river type content it is clear that it shares the same Tianyuan/Yana type pulls found in Kolyma, and Sakhalin HG/Proto-Jomon type pops. Yes calling it WSHG is an imperfect term, but whatever interaction happened north of the Himalayas with AG3 was likely a repeat scenario of how WSHG was formed in Siberia, which is interaction of ANE with Basally East Eurasian groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamil154 View Post
    We know that WSHG were 30% EHG, 50% ANE and 20% of some sort of East Eurasian. I wouldn't be surprised if this type of mix is responsible for the vaguely East/South Eurasian pull in WSHG. The formation of WSHG itself might be the result of a Paleolithic South-North movement from NE-Himalayan type population (Haplos D,K?) into an MA1 type population (Haplogroups Q,R).

    The link between Tianyuan and Jomon and Proto-Tibetan populations is pretty well established by now and this in-depth paper on East Asian Neolithic ancestry had similar observations:

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...b-figures-data

    Jomon affinity observed in Tibetans
    Attachment 45842

    Haplo D spread
    Attachment 45843

    East Eurasian Ancestral Tree:
    Attachment 45844
    Last edited by kamil154; 08-04-2021 at 02:18 PM.
    Mehrgarh v2.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.1
    Indo-Turanian Farmer (N/LCA): 33.6 (Mehrgarh Pre-Pottery: 19.2 + Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist: 14.4)
    South Asian HG (MP): 22.2
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 17.6
    Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (EBA): 16
    Pamir Knot HG (LM): 10.2

  15. #8899
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamil154 View Post
    If you analyze samples such as Chokhopani, for it's pre-Yellow river type content it is clear that it shares the same Tianyuan/Yana type pulls found in Kolyma, and Sakhalin HG/Proto-Jomon type pops. Yes calling it WSHG is an imperfect term, but whatever interaction happened north of the Himalayas with AG3 was likely a repeat scenario of how WSHG was formed in Siberia, which is interaction of ANE with Basally East Eurasian groups.
    like this?

     
    Target: NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP:C1
    Distance: 2.5265% / 0.02526508
    86.6 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    12.2 S_AASI_Sim(Irula)
    1.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    0.0 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA
    0.0 Onge
    0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    0.0 RUS_Kolyma_Meso
    0.0 RUS_MA1
    0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    0.0 RUS_Yana_UP

    Target: NPL_Mebrak_2125BP:M63
    Distance: 3.5527% / 0.03552738
    87.8 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    6.0 Onge
    5.4 S_AASI_Sim(Irula)
    0.8 RUS_Yana_UP
    0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.0 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA
    0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    0.0 RUS_Kolyma_Meso
    0.0 RUS_MA1
    0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    0.0 TUR_Barcin_N

    removing onge:

    Target: NPL_Mebrak_2125BP:M63
    Distance: 3.5897% / 0.03589741
    89.0 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    8.6 S_AASI_Sim(Irula)
    2.4 RUS_Yana_UP
    0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.0 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA
    0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    0.0 RUS_Kolyma_Meso
    0.0 RUS_MA1
    0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    0.0 TUR_Barcin_N

    replacing it with tianyuan:
    Target: NPL_Mebrak_2125BP:M63
    Distance: 3.7588% / 0.03758847
    83.8 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    16.2 CHN_Tianyuan
    0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.0 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA
    0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    0.0 RUS_Kolyma_Meso
    0.0 RUS_MA1
    0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    0.0 RUS_Yana_UP
    0.0 TUR_Barcin_N




    Seems like the substrate was mostly just AASI related rather than some Basal East Eurasian admixed ANE population.

    how WSHG was formed in Siberia, which is interaction of ANE with Basally East Eurasian groups.
     
    Target: RUS_Tyumen_HG
    Distance: 4.1411% / 0.04141079
    78.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    11.0 RUS_Baikal_N
    11.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
    0.0 JPN_Jomon
    0.0 Onge
    0.0 RUS_MA1
    0.0 S_AASI_Sim(Irula)


    I don't think that is the case regarding WSHG, otherwise we'd see a different pattern here. Going from MA1 to AG3 to Tyumen there is shift in regards East Eurasian ancestry, with it becoming less basal east eurasian but more east siberian related. There probably had not been any basaul east eurasians in the vicinity of where WSHG ancestry formed for thousands of years.

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  17. #8900
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    like this?

     
    Target: NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP:C1
    Distance: 2.5265% / 0.02526508
    86.6 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    12.2 S_AASI_Sim(Irula)
    1.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    0.0 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA
    0.0 Onge
    0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    0.0 RUS_Kolyma_Meso
    0.0 RUS_MA1
    0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    0.0 RUS_Yana_UP

    Target: NPL_Mebrak_2125BP:M63
    Distance: 3.5527% / 0.03552738
    87.8 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    6.0 Onge
    5.4 S_AASI_Sim(Irula)
    0.8 RUS_Yana_UP
    0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.0 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA
    0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    0.0 RUS_Kolyma_Meso
    0.0 RUS_MA1
    0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    0.0 TUR_Barcin_N

    removing onge:

    Target: NPL_Mebrak_2125BP:M63
    Distance: 3.5897% / 0.03589741
    89.0 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    8.6 S_AASI_Sim(Irula)
    2.4 RUS_Yana_UP
    0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.0 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA
    0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    0.0 RUS_Kolyma_Meso
    0.0 RUS_MA1
    0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    0.0 TUR_Barcin_N

    replacing it with tianyuan:
    Target: NPL_Mebrak_2125BP:M63
    Distance: 3.7588% / 0.03758847
    83.8 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    16.2 CHN_Tianyuan
    0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.0 KAZ_Kumsay_EBA
    0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    0.0 RUS_Kolyma_Meso
    0.0 RUS_MA1
    0.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
    0.0 RUS_Yana_UP
    0.0 TUR_Barcin_N




    Seems like the substrate was mostly just AASI related rather than some Basal East Eurasian admixed ANE population.



     
    Target: RUS_Tyumen_HG
    Distance: 4.1411% / 0.04141079
    78.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
    11.0 RUS_Baikal_N
    11.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
    0.0 JPN_Jomon
    0.0 Onge
    0.0 RUS_MA1
    0.0 S_AASI_Sim(Irula)


    I don't think that is the case regarding WSHG, otherwise we'd see a different pattern here. Going from MA1 to AG3 to Tyumen there is shift in regards East Eurasian ancestry, with it becoming less basal east eurasian but more east siberian related. There probably had not been any basaul east eurasians in the vicinity of where WSHG ancestry formed for thousands of years.
    Using Gonur2BA which is the best AASI proxy for excluding East Eurasian pulls.
    Screenshot (1122).png
    Last edited by kamil154; 08-04-2021 at 06:04 PM.
    Mehrgarh v2.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.1
    Indo-Turanian Farmer (N/LCA): 33.6 (Mehrgarh Pre-Pottery: 19.2 + Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist: 14.4)
    South Asian HG (MP): 22.2
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 17.6
    Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (EBA): 16
    Pamir Knot HG (LM): 10.2

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