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Thread: Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

  1. #5001
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    I don't think any of us are that far apart in our interpretations. The steppe is well sampled compared to a lot of places but we also have to accept that we're looking at major confounding factors. The practice of cremation and mobile steppe populations being especially suited to founder effects being two of them. We're also not just dealing with cremation because when we do have DNA the autosomal make up and parent/sibling clades all around means its less of a needle in a haystack and more a needle in a needlestack situation.

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  3. #5002
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    My gut feeling in the spoiler:
     

    There are basically two extreme options — either they were Brahminized in the mid/late IronAge(“Scythian” hypothesis) or they had already entered and entrenched in the culture, but cremated the heck out of their males to explain the complete lack of L657 in ancient records, despite the entire steppe regions being sampled pretty extensively by now.

    I’m beginning to think that L657 was the earlier wave from the early Bronze Age steppe, either from the far west or from the extreme North, but not the “Northwest”. Imo they had a very patriarchal system and they placed themselves on top (based on their direct male lines). Swat Valley and folks like Kalash imo were female-mediated IndoAryans that either remained peripherals or stayed “lower” in the societal totem pole, while those already entrenched deep into SouthAsia(with a healthy dose of female HGs) became ancestral Brahmins. Without aDNA to support either of those, we will just have to wait.
    Its could be scenario one but one cannot say without concrete results, but as far finding an early L657 sample its likely going to be from Iran like those IVCp samples lol, which seems counter-intuitive but its because L657 is found in Iranians and its very likely coming from a Mittani source, who were Indo Aryans. Mittani had full fledged kingdoms in the Levant by 1500 BC .

    *edit* looked deeper Its seems more a LBA incursion
    Last edited by pegasus; 06-02-2019 at 07:26 PM.

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  5. #5003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    Do we see any evidence for a second wave in the Y haplogroups though? Most of the R1a in South Asia, and in the high steppe groups usually associated with the second wave idea, is L657. Since we've been unable to find L657 in ancient DNA what are the odds that the second wave was also L657 from the same homeland as the first wave?
    I was not expecting L657 in early Swat so that did not come as a surprise. The first wave would be L, G, J, E seen in Swat if PIE is of West Eurasian Anatolia region origin. Only the location of Tocharian is inconsistent with that. So unless the tail really wagged the dog as Mallory put it ("Seldom has a tail so small wagged a dog so large"), Tocharian is just a stray anomaly.

    Z2124, Y40, L657 etc. in that scenario would from Indo-Iranianzed tribes. L657 perhaps was already in the Khakh, Shak regions of the Terai, Khotan, etc. by the time of the early Swat samples.

    Recently posted:
    "EXPLOSION FROM THE STEPPE?
    THE DISTRIBUTION AND ORIGINS OF THE Y-HAPLOGROUP R1a"

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post572417
    "The Y-haplogroup R1a is found in quantity over a vast area stretching east-west across
    the Eurasian steppe from Scandinavia to China, and north-south from the Urals to Sri Lanka, then
    west to Arabia. The subclade distribution of R1a is spatially differentiated, showing that the
    mainstream R1a1a1 of the steppe expanded in different directions from only two men who lived
    after 3000 BC. The initial expansions are extreme founder effects in the early Bronze Age, probably a
    bottleneck 'Event', while later expansions occurred in part through the control of key resources and
    strategic access to food technology ... Employing their skills with overland and river trading, metalworking and mining, the wheel, herding,
    the axe and the plough, the western branch R1a-Z283 formed the Corded Ware/Battle
    Axe/Catacomb culture of the South Baltic and Scandinavia, supported by the amber and salt trade ...
    From about 2200 BC, R1a-Z94 tribespeople displaced by the 4.2 kiloyear drying event founded the
    Sintashta fortified settlements near the Ural River and east to the Altai. They followed the southern
    trade routes through the proto-urban Bactria-Margiana complex on the Amu Darya river, gaining
    control of key mineral resources in Bactria and the Punjab and along the Silk Road, and moving as far
    east as the Tarim basin in China."

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  7. #5004
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    well i dont see how L657 arrived later with Saka. We have very many Saka genomes and L657 was not found among one of them. The easiest explanation is that L657 arrived via the Gomal pass like Pegasus assumes or via an another pass south of Swat. The early Indo-Aryan wave rich in L657 would be probably very Sintashta-like and similar to Pamiri and Jatts. Saka would be already more mixed and more Siberian/Yamnaya/BMAC-like. Also if Saka had such a big impact we would see a big Iranic adstrate in Indo-Aryan languages but except of Dards such kind of linguistic adstrate does not seem to exist at all.

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  9. #5005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well i dont see how L657 arrived later with Saka. We have very many Saka genomes and L657 was not found among one of them. The easiest explanation is that L657 arrived via the Gomal pass like Pegasus assumes or via an another pass south of Swat. The early Indo-Aryan wave rich in L657 would be probably very Sintashta-like and similar to Pamiri and Jatts. Saka would be already more mixed and more Siberian/Yamnaya/BMAC-like. Also if Saka had such a big impact we would see a big Iranic adstrate in Indo-Aryan languages but except of Dards such kind of linguistic adstrate does not seem to exist at all.
    I cannot comment on the genetic parts of it, but any Saka integration into the Brahminic fold would have gone through intense purging of non-Sanskritic language from those that were considered mlecchas. So, people could have made it into IndoAryan without any trace of non-IndoAryan culture/language.

    But I still think the simplest explanation is non-Saka and earlier than the IronAge. The Mittanis, the west most branch of IndiAryans, could explain R1aL657.

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  11. #5006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well i dont see how L657 arrived later with Saka. We have very many Saka genomes and L657 was not found among one of them. The easiest explanation is that L657 arrived via the Gomal pass like Pegasus assumes or via an another pass south of Swat. The early Indo-Aryan wave rich in L657 would be probably very Sintashta-like and similar to Pamiri and Jatts. Saka would be already more mixed and more Siberian/Yamnaya/BMAC-like. Also if Saka had such a big impact we would see a big Iranic adstrate in Indo-Aryan languages but except of Dards such kind of linguistic adstrate does not seem to exist at all.
    Sakas are too ENA /Okunevo mixed its likely a population which mixed in the Bronze Age and was harboring out in the Afghan highlands and pushed out in the late Bronze Age/Iron Age, in terms of modeling, though I would like to think there was some Antiquity dumping, the results clearly show a Sintashta/Krasnoyarsk source esp in Gradient descent, so yeah they arrive 3.5-4.0 Kya , Mittani get mentioned in the MLBA, so clearly they arrived in SC Asia earlier, they DEFINITELY are there. The Gomal Pass lays next too populations where L657 is very common and there is archaelogical remains to back it up. I am just putting 2 and 2 together. Gomal Pass is located directly opposite the Central Punjab plains, it would be relatively easy for them to advance through here, also the relatively high Steppe you find in Central/East Punjabi populations cannot be just coincidental.

    In the case of Jats/Rors some of them do pack extra Siberian ancestry, one Ror I found had a lot of it. And they weirdly model nicely with Maykop Steppe included, though its like proxying for another Siberian population which existed in Central Asia. Jats do show a notable amount of Q as their Y dna so there has to be a connection.



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  13. #5007
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    Scythians in Central Asia were also East Asian heavy. We’d see elevated levels in Brahmins if that were the case

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  15. #5008
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I was not expecting L657 in early Swat so that did not come as a surprise. The first wave would be L, G, J, E seen in Swat if PIE is of West Eurasian Anatolia region origin. Only the location of Tocharian is inconsistent with that. So unless the tail really wagged the dog as Mallory put it ("Seldom has a tail so small wagged a dog so large"), Tocharian is just a stray anomaly.

    Z2124, Y40, L657 etc. in that scenario would from Indo-Iranianzed tribes. L657 perhaps was already in the Khakh, Shak regions of the Terai, Khotan, etc. by the time of the early Swat samples.

    Recently posted:
    "EXPLOSION FROM THE STEPPE?
    THE DISTRIBUTION AND ORIGINS OF THE Y-HAPLOGROUP R1a"

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post572417
    "The Y-haplogroup R1a is found in quantity over a vast area stretching east-west across
    the Eurasian steppe from Scandinavia to China, and north-south from the Urals to Sri Lanka, then
    west to Arabia. The subclade distribution of R1a is spatially differentiated, showing that the
    mainstream R1a1a1 of the steppe expanded in different directions from only two men who lived
    after 3000 BC. The initial expansions are extreme founder effects in the early Bronze Age, probably a
    bottleneck 'Event', while later expansions occurred in part through the control of key resources and
    strategic access to food technology ... Employing their skills with overland and river trading, metalworking and mining, the wheel, herding,
    the axe and the plough, the western branch R1a-Z283 formed the Corded Ware/Battle
    Axe/Catacomb culture of the South Baltic and Scandinavia, supported by the amber and salt trade ...
    From about 2200 BC, R1a-Z94 tribespeople displaced by the 4.2 kiloyear drying event founded the
    Sintashta fortified settlements near the Ural River and east to the Altai. They followed the southern
    trade routes through the proto-urban Bactria-Margiana complex on the Amu Darya river, gaining
    control of key mineral resources in Bactria and the Punjab and along the Silk Road, and moving as far
    east as the Tarim basin in China."
    two things are in this paper high% of y-DNA R1a in Bosnians and the Scythians and Sarmatians come from Iran their language is Indo-Iranian but they come from the steppe with contact with Eastern peoples (for example Botai) later with European Pouplationen and thus you differ genetically from your linguistic relatives the Persians
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-sarmatian.

    Eurogenes Global 25 Calculator/Modern

    My:
    Polish: 27.8%
    German: 21.9%
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  17. #5009
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    I cannot comment on the genetic parts of it, but any Saka integration into the Brahminic fold would have gone through intense purging of non-Sanskritic language from those that were considered mlecchas. So, people could have made it into IndoAryan without any trace of non-IndoAryan culture/language.

    But I still think the simplest explanation is non-Saka and earlier than the IronAge. The Mittanis, the west most branch of IndiAryans, could explain R1aL657.
    Brahmins considered Persians and medieval Muslims also mlecchas but there is/was a significant Persian adstrate in Hindu and northern Indo-Aryan languages . Generally Saka are not that important and I don't think that even in Afghanistan (except the north maybe) there is significant saka ancestry at all. Saka are a bit overhyped in my opinion

  18. #5010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Brahmins considered Persians and medieval Muslims also mlecchas but there is/was a significant Persian adstrate in Hindu and northern Indo-Aryan languages . Generally Saka are not that important and I don't think that even in Afghanistan (except the north maybe) there is significant saka ancestry at all. Saka are a bit overhyped in my opinion
    I agree that Saka ancestry is likely overblown and given unnecessary importance. Saka ancestry explaining post-IronAge R1a and extra steppe does make things fit a lot better, but might not have been true at all.

    Having said that, the term "mleccha" usage in the medieval times was accompanied by a tremendous(almost total) shift in the IndoAryan culture in the NW where the previous elite Sanskrit was replaced by Persian(Turko-Persian) and Persian was the defacto language of the elites, expect perhaps the remnant Brahmin priesthood still clinging on to Sanskrit. So, it was natural for the northern IndoAryan languages, by the medieval times, to have contained the Turko-Persian influence.

    If I am not completley off, the pre-Islamic-expansion era would have had some Persian/Greek influence through Buddhism that flourished in SC Asia, but Brahmin priests still would have had cultural/linguistic control in the NW. But the latter cultural shift due to Islamic expansion completely blew the lid off Sanskrit in the NW and previously culturally powerful Brahmin priesthood was relegated to a minority group, along with the uppercaste Hindus in the NW, with virtually no power over the cultural/linguistic landscape.

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