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Thread: Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

  1. #5571
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post

    I'll try running these unscaled with a penalty. Gradient Descents are also unscaled(Pegasus informed me) but I don't have unscaled coords for any members. Could you share your sheet?
    PM'd you.

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  3. #5572
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Tepe Hissar arrives in a diluted form via IIr related groups because I looked at most member samples and outside of Western Pakistan populations , Agentlime and Aaaronbee had the most of it with a pretty good fit, for Agent its his best fit. Though Aarronbee results are interesting because he also has a lot of Steppe MLBA , the highest I have seen outside of Rors thus far. Its safe to say this kind of ancestry arrives with Indo Aryan or IIr groups, who seem to carry more of it than actual Steppe MLBA esp in Agent's case.

    {
    "sample": "Punjabi_Jat:aaronbee2010_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.9227,
    "PAK_Swat_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o": 40,
    "IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C": 32.5,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 23.33,
    "RUS_West_Siberia_N": 4.17,
    "NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP": 0,
    "TKM_Parkhai_En": 0,

    sample": "Khatri:agentlime_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.7798,
    "PAK_Swat_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o": 41.67,
    "IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C": 37.5,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 15,
    "RUS_West_Siberia_N": 5.83,
    "NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP": 0,
    "TKM_Parkhai_En": 0,

    Now here Aaaron's Steppe MLBA is lower once I put a BMAC source it goes back to around 27-30%. The main point is it comes via Indo Aryans or other IIr groups given the archaelogy and time periods.

    To check I used a group form Western Pakistan which definitely has a lot of this ancestry.



    "sample": "Yusufzai:Average",
    "fit": 1.0407,
    "PAK_Swat_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o": 31.67,
    "IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C": 30.83,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 22.5,
    "TKM_Parkhai_En": 9.17,
    "NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP": 3.33,
    "RUS_West_Siberia_N": 2.5,
    "closestDistances": [


    *edit*

    Gangetic Brahmin

    "sample": "Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh:mahadev_dubey_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.9923,
    "PAK_Swat_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o": 63.33,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 17.5,
    "TKM_Parkhai_En": 12.5,
    "IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C": 5,
    "RUS_West_Siberia_N": 1.67,
    "NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP": 0,
    "closestDistances": [
    If it came with Indo-Aryans it would also appear significantly in Gangetic Brahmins who are enriched for MLBA steppe, i dont think this is the case

    I will also run SISBA1 vs Tepe Hissar for West Indian groups to see what the fit differentials are when i get home. I dont think the ANF in BA1 is native to SIS given BA2 and 3 do not have it as you pointed it out. Maybe the ANF source in Tepe Hissar is also the same one for BA1

    Also if SISBA1 is used for interior groups, how does it suddenly not become relevant for NWers when the Baloch/Brahui are chock full of it
    Last edited by bmoney; 07-22-2019 at 02:18 AM.

  4. #5573
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    If it came with Indo-Aryans it would also appear significantly in Gangetic Brahmins who are enriched for MLBA steppe, i dont think this is the case

    I will also run SISBA1 vs Tepe Hissar for West Indian groups to see what the fit differentials are when i get home. I dont think the ANF in BA1 is native to SIS given BA2 and 3 do not have it as you pointed it out. Maybe the ANF source in Tepe Hissar is also the same one for BA1

    Also if SISBA1 is used for interior groups, how does it suddenly not become relevant for NWers when the Baloch/Brahui are chock full of it
    Balochis are descended from a high Iran_N western Indus valley population.

  5. #5574
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    yep agreed that paper is not what im going to base my theory on, but i still have a hunch that R2a L295+was the first wave and probably had no ANF

    non-steppe ANF carrying pops could have been E1b (Udegram but now extinct in SA), J2 (Yfull could sort age differentials), L1 (Baloch/Brahui distribution), G2a (couldnt have been from a IranN+ANE source with no ANF as seen in the Paniya) haplogroup T, exists in SA in pockets
    further to this an actual L1a1 in the new viking study, quote from user Erlembaldo. Again no ancient L samples have been found without ANF:

    VK538 Italy_Foggia-1249 Italy Foggia Cancarro 11-13th centuries CE 1.203 Male L1a1b H+16291

    There was an L1 found in the new Viking study from medieval southern Italy. He's roughly 5/8 Southern European/Italian-like and 3/8 Northern European, with the majority of that being Polish-like.

    VK538 (M)
    Y-DNA L1a1b
    mtDNA H+16291
    62.6% Italian-like, 23.3% Polish-like, 6.8% British-like, 3.4% Norwegian-like, 3.3% Finnish-like, 0.4% Danish-like, 0.1% Swedish-like


    Looking through the y calls 2 G2a2b2a (same y dna as Soulblighter whos an Iyer)

    G-P303*, also known as G2a2b2a* (previously G2a3b1*), and its subclades are now concentrated in southern Russia and the Caucasus, as well as, at lower levels, other parts of Europe and South West Asia, especially an area including Turkey, Iran and the Middle East where G2a2b2a may have originated. G2a2b2a is also found in India.

    VK39 Sweden_Skara 181 Sweden Skara Varnhem 10-12th centuries CE 0.164 Male G2a2b2a1a1b1a T2b4b
    VK479 Gotland_Kopparsvik-272 Sweden Gotland Kopparsvik 900-1050 CE 1.817 Male G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a2a1a H1a1

    2 T1a's though not sure of the South Asian subclades as I cant find deeper T predictions for the South Asian Ts Haplogroup T-M184 has been detected at very high levels in some parts of eastern India.

    VK17 Russia_Ladoga_5680-17 Russia Ladoga Ladoga 10-12th centuries CE 0.522 Male T1a1a U5a2a1b
    VK398 Sweden_Skara 231 Sweden Skara Varnhem 10-12th centuries CE 1.291 Male T1a2b1 H1b1+16362

    1 R2a2 was found but its not the South Asian type of R2a1

    VK123 Iceland_X104 Iceland Hofstadir Hofstadir 10-13th centuries CE 1.148 Male R2a2b1 J1c9

    Again nothing conclusive, but just some evidence to support that non-steppe Y-DNA with lower diversity and likely newer timelines than R2a L295+ (initial IranN event) entered South Asia probably bringing ANF ancestry with it

    J2a1 was also found, though not of the South Asian type - Occurrence of one J2a1a-M47 and two J2a1h1-M158 chromosomes have been reported earlier in Indian samples18,23, though we could not find any in the present study.

    VK42 Sweden_Skara 62 Sweden Skara Varnhem 10-12th centuries CE 9.25 Male J2a1a1b2a1b1 T2b11
    VK317 Denmark_Kaargarden Grav BF99 Denmark Langeland Kaagården 10th century CE 1.233 Male J2a1a1a2b2 H2a2a1
    Last edited by bmoney; 07-22-2019 at 03:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    Balochis are descended from a high Iran_N western Indus valley population.
    Could you elaborate

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Could you elaborate
    Unlike other groups west of the Indus like Pashtuns or Kalash they cant be modeled as simply BMAC-Steppe-IVC(SIS3-like). They have lots of excess Iran_N. Some have pointed out that recent western IVC samples are very Iran_N shifted, so it is likely they are the forebearers of Baloch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    If it came with Indo-Aryans it would also appear significantly in Gangetic Brahmins who are enriched for MLBA steppe, i dont think this is the case

    I will also run SISBA1 vs Tepe Hissar for West Indian groups to see what the fit differentials are when i get home. I dont think the ANF in BA1 is native to SIS given BA2 and 3 do not have it as you pointed it out. Maybe the ANF source in Tepe Hissar is also the same one for BA1

    Also if SISBA1 is used for interior groups, how does it suddenly not become relevant for NWers when the Baloch/Brahui are chock full of it
    If you read the puranas there are multiple Indo Aryan clans/ kingdoms. Not all of them went eastward towards Gangetic plains. Baloch and Brahui carry different ancestry than Kalash, Kamboj. The Gangetic Brahmins got a Sintashta heavy ancestry like the ancestors of the Rors.

  12. #5578
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    If you read the puranas there are multiple Indo Aryan clans/ kingdoms. Not all of them went eastward towards Gangetic plains. Baloch and Brahui carry different ancestry than Kalash, Kamboj. The Gangetic Brahmins got a Sintashta heavy ancestry like the ancestors of the Rors.
    This is the map from the late Iron Age (600-300BCE) and looks like IronAge IndoAryans pretty much established themselves in the entire Gangetic plains and well as had the extreme NorthWest.

    @pegasus or others, what does archaeology say about this?

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...500_BCE%29.png
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    Sorry for off topic, but does anyone have the Eurasia K9 ASI and Neolithic K13 population spreadsheets? I cannot find it on gedmatch.

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    to clear up Tepe Hissar vs SISBA1 in terms of modelling 1000 x 500 0 pen - both NWers and West Indians get a better fit using SISBA1 however thats not the end of the story

    Using Tepe Hissar instead of BA1 gives everyone Sarazm (except Midi who scores the highest Tepe Hissar but gets 0 Sarazm as with other models) with Gujjar and Velama scoring the highest of the Sarazm component

    interestingly Patel and Reddy had the least worsening of the fit when using Tepe Hissar instead at 11 and 13% worse fit

    Gujjars and Khatris both had a 26 and 25% worsening of fit when using Tepe Hissar in comparison, but Tepe Hissar seems like a more historically realistic model for everyone given it removes the 5% Steppe that Patels and Reddys are getting in the BA1 model

    Also it is unrealistic to assume no one gets Sarazm type ancestry in this run, which when using SISBA1 gives everyone 0

    Conclusion, i dont think Sarazm or Tepe Hissar type ancestry is exclusive to the NW at all, its realistic in all South Asian pops as the component likely far preceded steppe migrations

    In fact in this model Indus natives like Khatris and Gujjars look like Gujaratis with extra steppe and lower AASI. The Indus pops also score small detectable levels of Chokopani (BA1 model only for Gujjar), indicating that this component is restricted to Northern South Asia

    Last edited by bmoney; 07-23-2019 at 02:26 AM.

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