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Thread: Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

  1. #4801
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    I did say "IIRC". I could've just messed up with mis-remembering something that wasn't even said
    Arabians do have L657, but I don't understand why such a theory is being put forth in the first place. This has to be among the strangest things I have read on this forum alongside "dietary preferences increasing components of admixture".

    I mean there are no lengths to which these things can be extrapolated, at some point one has to draw the line within some boundaries of reason. However, I am not suggesting that I have a robust theory of my own.

  2. #4802
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    Quote Originally Posted by client View Post
    Arabians do have L657, but I don't understand why such a theory is being put forth in the first place. This has to be among the strangest things I have read on this forum alongside "dietary preferences increasing components of admixture".

    I mean there are no lengths to which these things can be extrapolated, at some point one has to draw the line within some boundaries of reason. However, I am not suggesting that I have a robust theory of my own.
    As I said, I could be completely wrong about what he said. I'm gonna feel really stupid if it turns out I did D:
    FTDNA: IN41220
    YFull: YF62636

    FATHER:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R2a2b1b2a1a1-Y1383* (Y154917-)
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M479 > M124 > P267 > Y12100 > Y8763 > Y8766 > V3714 > SK2142 > Y1377 > Y1379 > Z29271 > Y1383 x Y154917


    mtDNA (YFull): M5a-a2-G9064A


    MATERNAL UNCLE:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R1b1a1b1b3a-Z2109
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M173 > M343 > L754 > L388 > P297 > M269 > L23 > Z2103 > Z2106 > Z2109

    mtDNA (YFull): U7a3a12-C15433T

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  4. #4803
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    Could this R1a migration from (presumably) a western region towards the Bolan pass relate to your theory that R1a-L657 is linked to Arab migrations (IIRC)?
    That the Arabs got L657 from the same source very early is possible. Besides L657, Arabs have some Y3+ L657- on the Y2 branch.

    There is another Y3 line that is both Y2- and L657- from Minas Gerais, Brazil.

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  6. #4804
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    @parasar just to clarify, do you mean Shakya when you say "Shak" or Saka?

  7. #4805
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    Rizab has an interesting theory about how Jats, Rors, Pamiris and Tajiks might be related. Are Jats the Anus tribe mixed with NW HG's?



    https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/01...an-connection/
    Its not by Razib but his more trollish counterpart Jaydeep. I wish people would stop posting links to this blog its very reductive lol. I think this is more apt for the Atrium.

    In other words, the role of Steppe_MLBA in spreading Indo-Iranian languages into South Central Asia looks very unlikely and improbable.

    Another interesting detail is that Indus_Periphery & Namazga_CA samples show significant levels (~35 %) of Steppe_EMBA ancestry in qpAdm.




    While there is a vague Eneolithic connection between Namazga and Steppe EMBA, or even the Sarazm like ancestry in Vonyuchka and Progress, he is conflating them as one to negate Corded Ware and the Sintashta/Petrovka cultures which they descend from.


    . It may also be noted that Haryana, the homeland of Jats & Rors, has the highest concentration of the earliest pre-Harappan & early Harappan sites such as Kunal, Bhiranna, Girawad, Farmana, Rakhigarhi etc. with Rakhigarhi now officially the largest Harappan site


    This is not true at all , the earliest sites are in SW Pakistan lol.

    This seems to be before the full Wang paper dropped because those Progress /Vonyuchka samples made it clear as day IE/PIE cultures originate on the Pontic Steppe. Since those samples are even more CHG/Iran_N shifted he will spin that to his narrative even though those samples are from the late Neolithic.
    Last edited by pegasus; 05-23-2019 at 08:05 PM.

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  9. #4806
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    Quote Originally Posted by client View Post
    @parasar just to clarify, do you mean Shakya when you say "Shak" or Saka?
    No, by Shak I mean what have been referred to as Saka, Sek, Se, etc.
    The Shak Sambat has their name. There is a theory that the Shak era started with the demise of the Shak, but that seems unlikely to me.

    As far as the Sakiya/Shakya - yes indeed they could be the same as the Shak.

    Witzel thinks that possible - "Såkiyå attested in Påli (= Skt. Śaka/Śåkya, N.Iranian Saka) make their appearance into India only much later, after having immigrated first to Seistån ( <*Såkaståna), from the area north of Iran."

    Etymologically that is also possible.
    Sakiya (Teak), Sag, Sej, Sei
    "The Sanskrit name of teak is saka, and it is certain that in India teak has been known and used largely for considerably more than 2000 years. In Persia teak was used nearly 2000 years ago, and the town of Siraf on the Persian Gulf was entirely built of it. SaJ is the name in Arabic and Persian; and in Hindi, Mahratti, and the other modern languages derived from Sanskrit the tree is called sag, sagwan. In the Dravidian languages the name is teka, and the Portuguese, adopting this, called it teke, teca, whence the English name."
    https://www.1902encyclopedia.com/T/TEA/teak.html

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  11. #4807
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Actually that makes sense to me and that is why I think Brahman founders for the most part were Shak and not Indo-Aryan.

    ...

    Another proposed entry point for the Shak is from Khotan via the Karakoram pass or other antecedent riverine passes.
    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    Could this R1a migration from (presumably) a western region towards the Bolan pass relate to your theory that R1a-L657 is linked to Arab migrations (IIRC)?
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    No, by Shak I mean what have been referred to as Saka, Sek, Se, etc.
    The Shak Sambat has their name. There is a theory that the Shak era started with the demise of the Shak, but that seems unlikely to me.

    As far as the Sakiya/Shakya - yes indeed they could be the same as the Shak.

    Witzel thinks that possible - "Såkiyå attested in Påli (= Skt. Śaka/Śåkya, N.Iranian Saka) make their appearance into India only much later, after having immigrated first to Seistån ( <*Såkaståna), from the area north of Iran."

    Etymologically that is also possible.
    Sakiya (Teak), Sag, Sej, Sei
    "The Sanskrit name of teak is saka, and it is certain that in India teak has been known and used largely for considerably more than 2000 years. In Persia teak was used nearly 2000 years ago, and the town of Siraf on the Persian Gulf was entirely built of it. SaJ is the name in Arabic and Persian; and in Hindi, Mahratti, and the other modern languages derived from Sanskrit the tree is called sag, sagwan. In the Dravidian languages the name is teka, and the Portuguese, adopting this, called it teke, teca, whence the English name."
    https://www.1902encyclopedia.com/T/TEA/teak.html

    I would have assumed RigVedic rishis such as Vashista, Bharadwaja, etc were Brahmins (considering Brahmins historically used them as their Gotras). The oldest books of RigVeda were composed by them during the BronzeAge, a good 1000 years before the Sakas, no? Are you saying that the new wave of non-IndoAryans, during mid-late IronAge, took over priestly/officiating duties and spread across the Gangetic plains (and beyond) to give rise to the ancestors of modern Brahmins? For (modern) Brahmin caste as a whole to have descended from non-IndoAryans (from tribes such as the Sakas), there must have been a societal takeover in the center of religious activity (Varanas) where non-IndoAryans took over priestly/officiating duties.

    Note that there are Brahmins like Nepali Khas Bahuns, at least in some documents/lores, were said to be Brahminized upon their arrival in the central Himalayas. But no such lore exists for Brahmins from other areas afaik. Genetically, the Brahmins from all over have similar Steppe/IranN compared to their non-Brahmin co-regionalists. Genetically, at least, the non-AASI ancestors of modern Brahmins look to be originally high SteppeMLBA, low IranN... with Steppe-to-IranN increasing in pops from the interiorNorth/East/South and Steppe-to-IranN decreasing in pops from the NorthWest.

    tldr - I'm completely lost.
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  13. #4808
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    tldr - I'm completely lost.
    rip in pies
    FTDNA: IN41220
    YFull: YF62636

    FATHER:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R2a2b1b2a1a1-Y1383* (Y154917-)
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M479 > M124 > P267 > Y12100 > Y8763 > Y8766 > V3714 > SK2142 > Y1377 > Y1379 > Z29271 > Y1383 x Y154917


    mtDNA (YFull): M5a-a2-G9064A


    MATERNAL UNCLE:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R1b1a1b1b3a-Z2109
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M173 > M343 > L754 > L388 > P297 > M269 > L23 > Z2103 > Z2106 > Z2109

    mtDNA (YFull): U7a3a12-C15433T

  14. #4809
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    Could this R1a migration from (presumably) a western region towards the Bolan pass relate to your theory that R1a-L657 is linked to Arab migrations (IIRC)?
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    That the Arabs got L657 from the same source very early is possible. Besides L657, Arabs have some Y3+ L657- on the Y2 branch.

    There is another Y3 line that is both Y2- and L657- from Minas Gerais, Brazil.
    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    As I said, I could be completely wrong about what he said. I'm gonna feel really stupid if it turns out I did D:
    I think a few members have suggested that R1a-L657 could have taken the Arabian coastal route into Western Pakistan rather from the North(Central Asia). Since L657’s parent clade was in the PC steppe, it would not be out of the ordinary that the Steppe R1a-L657 males took a more sourthern route through West Asia into South Asia rather than the eastern route through Central Asia.

    Assumptions and speculations in the spoiler:
     
    Assuming R1a-L657 had significance in the BronzeAge IndoAryan migration into SouthAsia and they took the MiddleEastern route, wouldn’t that connect R1a-L657 to the Mittani IndoAryans that were in the Middle East? If the migration was much later(as “Arabian migration” suggests), R1a-L657 could not have been IndoAryans.

    If so, basically, the early IronAge SwatValley Vedic Aryan sites like the Udegrams had the “middle eastern” ydna E, while R1a would have been brought from Arabia.

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  16. #4810
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    I would have assumed RigVedic rishis such as Vashista, Bharadwaja, etc were Brahmins (considering Brahmins historically used them as their Gotras). The oldest books of RigVeda were composed by them during the BronzeAge, a good 1000 years before the Sakas, no? Are you saying that the new wave of non-IndoAryans, during mid-late IronAge, took over priestly/officiating duties and spread across the Gangetic plains (and beyond) to give rise to the ancestors of modern Brahmins? For (modern) Brahmin caste as a whole to have descended from non-IndoAryans (from tribes such as the Sakas), there must have been a societal takeover in the center of religious activity (Varanas) where non-IndoAryans took over priestly/officiating duties.

    Note that there are Brahmins like Nepali Khas Bahuns, at least in some documents/lores, were said to be Brahminized upon their arrival in the central Himalayas. But no such lore exists for Brahmins from other areas afaik. Genetically, the Brahmins from all over have similar Steppe/IranN compared to their non-Brahmin co-regionalists. Genetically, at least, the non-AASI ancestors of modern Brahmins look to be originally high SteppeMLBA, low IranN... with Steppe-to-IranN increasing in pops from the interiorNorth/East/South and Steppe-to-IranN decreasing in pops from the NorthWest.

    tldr - I'm completely lost.
    Same here - these are just theories.
    Just trying to make sense of the late appearance of R1a1 on the northern Indus. All the rest - J, H, L, R2, C, G and even E are there - and it was my feeling even before Narasimhan et al. that R1a1 would be absent. On the flip side there is not much besides R1a1 in the proximate steppe.
    Let's see if updated set of 550 samples shows something else.

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