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Thread: Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

  1. #1401
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    Quote Originally Posted by prashantvaidwan View Post
    You are grossly misinformed and trying to adapt the Punjab model in West UP where, many independent clans, after the advent of sikhism joined jat brotherhood and as per many western scholars jatt even became a synonym of farmer. Just check the land revenue records of west Up/Haryana for the reign of Akbar, majority of landowners were jats. There is no addition/deduction in jat folds, except the few jatts who converted to Islam at the time of Aurangzeb.
    Jats are not mentioned east of punjab before 17th century. What could be the reason? Delhi was heart of all of empires in last 1000 years. And today there are millions of hindu jats all around Delhi, Haryana, west UP and Rajasthan. They kept low profile? There is just no proof of people who identified as jats being in Haryana/UP for last 1000 years.

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    ^^ But isn't Haryana a "recent" designation? ie. Wasn't what we now call Haryana just historically considered Punjab in the times we are considering? Correct me if I'm wrong guys. When did some distinguishing between a Punjabi and Haryana Jatt even occur? It had to be recent?
    Just from my own perspective of how one would view a Haryanvi in the areas I've lived -- they are Punjabi and they speak Haryanvi which is something between Punjabi and I guess what'd we call Bazaari Urdu (Khariboli?) I guess anyone who understands Punjabi and Urdu can understand Haryanvi. I suppose from my perspective I've always just looked at Haryana as just the most eastern part of Punjab; it's certainly more similar to Northern Punjab than Southern Punjab is to either -- so if we use that as a barometer, I think it's not unreasonable to look at Haryana as Eastern Punjab. In terms of looks, I guess in Multan you can kinda of tell because they have a lot of features that overlap with UP. However, I don't know if any of the Haryanvis I know are Jatt, I never asked.
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 08-10-2018 at 06:45 AM.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    ^^ But isn't Haryana a "recent" designation? ie. Wasn't what we now call Haryana just historically considered Punjab in the times we are considering? Correct me if I'm wrong guys. When did some distinguishing between a Punjabi and Haryana Jatt even occur? It had to be recent?
    Just from my own perspective of how one would view a Haryanvi in the areas I've lived -- they are Punjabi and they speak Haryanvi which is something between Punjabi and I guess what'd we call Bazaari Urdu (Khariboli?) I guess anyone who understands Punjabi and Urdu can understand Haryanvi. I suppose from my perspective I've always just looked at Haryana as just the most eastern part of Punjab; it's certainly more similar to Northern Punjab than Southern Punjab is to either -- so if we use that as a barometer, I think it's not unreasonable to look at Haryana as Eastern Punjab. In terms of looks, I guess in Multan you can kinda of tell because they have a lot of features that overlap with UP. However, I don't know if any of the Haryanvis I know are Jatt, I never asked.
    From what my friend told me Haryanvi is a crude dialect of Hindi. Dluffy knows this region better, along with Prashant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    ^^ But isn't Haryana a "recent" designation? ie. Wasn't what we now call Haryana just historically considered Punjab in the times we are considering? Correct me if I'm wrong guys. When did some distinguishing between a Punjabi and Haryana Jatt even occur? It had to be recent?
    Just from my own perspective of how one would view a Haryanvi in the areas I've lived -- they are Punjabi and they speak Haryanvi which is something between Punjabi and I guess what'd we call Bazaari Urdu (Khariboli?) I guess anyone who understands Punjabi and Urdu can understand Haryanvi. I suppose from my perspective I've always just looked at Haryana as just the most eastern part of Punjab; it's certainly more similar to Northern Punjab than Southern Punjab is to either -- so if we use that as a barometer, I think it's not unreasonable to look at Haryana as Eastern Punjab. In terms of looks, I guess in Multan you can kinda of tell because they have a lot of features that overlap with UP. However, I don't know if any of the Haryanvis I know are Jatt, I never asked.
    Haryana was east punjab under British raj. Under Mughals it was part of Delhi province.



    I think must people agree that haryanvi is more like hindi then punjabi. Its considered dialect of hindi.

    punjabi





    haryanvi



    powadhi/punjabi spoken east of Indian punjab is considered bit like haryanvi

    Last edited by bol_nat; 08-10-2018 at 08:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bol_nat View Post
    Jats are not mentioned east of punjab before 17th century. What could be the reason? Delhi was heart of all of empires in last 1000 years. And today there are millions of hindu jats all around Delhi, Haryana, west UP and Rajasthan. They kept low profile? There is just no proof of people who identified as jats being in Haryana/UP for last 1000 years.
    Ain-e-akbari mentions jats as major zamindars of agra and delhi subah. Al-biruni even mentioned "Shri Krishna" born in Jat tribe (make sense?) why he would mention Krishna (born in Mathura region) as from jat tribe if there were no jats in that region? It was "jatwan" a gathwala jat who seized Hansi(Hisar) during aibak rule. James todd identified them as "Jit" living in delhi/rajasthan region for long time. An 11 th century rewa inscription in Madhya Pradesh is found when a chedi ruler sought help from "jits" of the region.
    All those references you mentioned ever talked about other communities of delhi/haryana region and left the jats out from the discussion? If jats are not mentioned in these documents, it should be taken as they did not exist. delhi sultanate hardly interfered in their internal affairs of khaps, so relation went amicably most of the time. Most of the jats in the delhi region have their own migration history and say their ancestor homeland in rajasthan/Punjab.

    Even genetics is progressing to prove jats of west up/ Haryana isolated from other neighboring population, so they hardly sound the blend of various distinct groups.

    To know about khaps, an article posted in 1965 in economic weekly about khaps of meerut division. They have written records from 13th century.
    https://www.epw.in/system/files/pdf/...cal_system.pdf

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    Does this make any sense?

    1 Afanasievo +Gonur1_BA +Saka_Tian_Shan +Velamas Custom_-_AGUser_Jatt1 2.3551 15.83 16.67 16.67 50.83
    2 Afanasievo +Gonur1_BA +Saka_Tian_Shan +Velamas Custom_-_AGUser_Sapporo 2.1219 6.67 15.83 26.67 50.83

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    From what my friend told me Haryanvi is a crude dialect of Hindi. Dluffy knows this region better, along with Prashant.
    I guess that's the best way to describe it. It reminds be of minor character speech in a Bollywood movie or something. They use Merako|Terako instead of Mujhe/mujhko in Hindi-Urdu or mainu/maikoo Punjabi-Saraiki (tujhe/tujhko/tainu/taikoo) which really stands out in speech in Pakistan. [I have a former Bihari roommate that also uses merako/terako; I guess that's more common Haryana and east?) What makes it like Punjabi is they have like a slight tonality here and there sometimes and I think occasionally they conjugate some verbs like in Punjabi (but this just might be the effect of Punjabi on the Haryanvi that I met in Punjab?). Either way, the tonality stands out in Southern Punjab, because Saraiki isn't tonal (at least not typically), so any hint of tonal makes everyone in Pakistan think Punjabi. I think of it like Street Hindi-Urdu with a Punjabi twang.
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 08-10-2018 at 11:03 AM.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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  13. #1408
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    I guess that's the best way to describe it. It reminds be of minor character speech in a Bollywood movie or something. They use Merako|Terako instead of Mujhe/mujhko in Hindi-Urdu or mainu/maikoo Punjabi-Saraiki (tujhe/tujhko/tainu/taikoo) which really stands out in speech in Pakistan. [I have a former Bihari roommate that also uses merako/terako; I guess that's more common Haryana and east?) What makes it like Punjabi is they have like a slight tonality here and there sometimes and I think occasionally they conjugate some verbs like in Punjabi (but this just might be the effect of Punjabi on the Haryanvi that I met in Punjab?). Either way, the tonality stands out in Southern Punjab, because Saraiki isn't tonal (at least not typically), so any hint of tonal makes everyone in Pakistan think Punjabi. I think of it like Street Hindi-Urdu with a Punjabi twang.
    Merako/terako is used to put a sophisticated tone to normal hindi in urban areas, mostly used by immigrants from other states in delhi and refugees from Pakistan living in urban areas of haryana. It has never been part of Haryanvi/khari boli language of rural folks. Haryanva/west UP ppl use manne/tanne or majhe/tajhe.
    Last edited by prashantvaidwan; 08-10-2018 at 11:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prashantvaidwan View Post
    Merako/terako is used to put a sophisticated tone to normal hindi in urban areas, mostly used by immigrants from other states in delhi and refugees from Pakistan living in urban areas of haryana. It has never been part of Haryanvi/khari boli language of rural folks. Haryanva/west UP ppl use manne/tanne or majhe/tajhe.
    Really? Wow, it's so opposite, I guess most people in Pakistan generally associate the merako/terako with unsophisticated speech. That Haryvanvi speaker bol_nat posted was using Mera ko/Tera ko, was it because it was a speech? I guess most of the people who migrated are city folks, or maybe they speak like that to be more understood?
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 08-10-2018 at 11:55 AM.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    Really? Wow, it's so opposite, I guess people generally associate the merako/terako with unsophisticated speech. That Haryvanvi speaker bol_nat posted was using Mera ko/Tera ko, was it because it was a speech?
    A Jat lad from Bollywood trying to be sober...I have never used this merako/terako...lol.....and if any village guy living in city comes back to village and use these words..he is mocked like hell
    https://youtu.be/P3QZXXiNav4
    Last edited by prashantvaidwan; 08-10-2018 at 12:00 PM.

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