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Thread: Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

  1. #4891
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well i dont see really anything here proving that Sintashta is from Yamnaya or Poltavka. Like i said before Sintashta is from CWC and probably arrived via Middle Dnyper<Fatyanovo-Balanovo /Abashevo. They are the best source for the extra EEF admixture and as part of CWC they were rich in R1a. Abashevo ceramics strongly influenced Sintashta ceramics and it seems that Andronovo/Sintashta derived its stockbreeding from Abashevo.

    ...
    The question is does Sintashta have extra EEF compared to Potapovka 1 right underneath it, of the same Z94 Z2121 line, and 500-800 years earlier?

  2. #4892
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    He's from North Punjab (India).

    I'm about to order him a test for Y35099.

    All YFull Indian R1b-Z2109 samples appear to be Z2110- (Either under R1b-Y35099 or R1b-Z2109*).

    If he test's negative for Y35099, then he's probably positive for a SNP that isn't on the YFull tree at the moment. If I get him a full sequence, the prices will have to go down first.

    I could add SK2067 and SK2096 to the YSEQ store if he tests Y35099-. What do you think?

    That would be great. I always wondered if there was a connection with the Swāt-- Khyber Pakhtunkhwa region.

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  4. #4893
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    That would be great. I always wondered if there was a connection with the Swāt-- Khyber Pakhtunkhwa region.
    Thanks I'll keep you posted on his YSEQ results if you're interested.

    If sequencing gets cheap enough I might do that in the future, but right now money is not something I have a lot of, as I spent the majority of my savings on my Dante Labs WGS.

    If R1b-Z2109 was a BMAC line (entered alongside J2a) then it should have a presence among ancient Swat Valley Indo-Aryans
    FTDNA: IN41220
    YFull: YF62636

    FATHER:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R2a2b1b2a1a1-Y1383* (Y154917-)
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M479 > M124 > P267 > Y12100 > Y8763 > Y8766 > V3714 > SK2142 > Y1377 > Y1379 > Z29271 > Y1383 x Y154917


    mtDNA (YFull): M5a-a2-G9064A


    MATERNAL UNCLE:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R1b1a1b1b3a-Z2109
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M173 > M343 > L754 > L388 > P297 > M269 > L23 > Z2103 > Z2106 > Z2109

    mtDNA (YFull): U7a3a12-C15433T

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  6. #4894
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Jatt Pathak is, I believe, a Haryana Jatt from Pathak 2018 study. As for your sample labeled as PJ005, you could confirm by checking the G25 datasheet. PJ005 is definitely an outlier compared to the rest of PunjabJatt samples. Are you a Pahari Jatt?
    No, just mixed with something. Punjabi Jatts from around Faisalabad mostly seem to be mixed to varying degrees. I thought it was just my family but several have turned up online with similar peculiar results. Much higher South Asian/Indian results and very low Baloch/Gedrosian/Iran_N, but Steppe doesn't drop too low, and quite a few have higher than expected Mediterranean or Southwest Asian, which might be due to lower than usual ANE in calculators like ANE K7. So in all the Oracles it comes out like some kind of Iranian or West Caucasian like West Asian component. In G25, it's usually Iran_Chl. I don't know what it all means.

    Best indication is our matches, and mine are probably 40-50% Punjabi Jatt Sikh (with normal results) and the other half is like a mix of some Pahari/West Punjabi Jatts and random North Indian and Pakistani Muslim groups. The latter is growing steadily now on 23andMe as it gets more popular and will probably exceed my other matches soon. There were quite a few North Indian Muslim surnames like Baig or Mirza. I've seen a handful of Arora/Tarkhan matches. Few (maybe 1 or 2 of each), but they're there. I've seen some Hindu Brahmin matches too, but very few (otherwise I'd have thought we look more like transplanted Brahmins from Punjab or Kashmir/Himachal).

    In some corners, there's more of a West Punjab connection (my grandmother, who's from Sheikhupura, where the people will be more like Jatt Sikh and Pahari Jatts or a combination thereof). In others, like my father, he has a bunch of matches to Jatts from Eastern Punjab and Haryana who have the high Steppe, low Iran_N profile of that region. I mined his results to find a few like that actually. He also has unusually low Baloch/Gedrosian and from his mother got some extra SW-Asian which gets him a touch of Iranian on a lot of Oracles. His father was from Hoshiarpur and here's what I thought he might be like (in ANE K7 which gave somewhat coherent results):

    Dad actual:

    28.65% 16.37% 6.19% 5.51% 0.86% 2.82% 39.59%

    Most likely average of my dad's mom's family:

    29.37% 17.77% 4.16% 3.63% 0.96% 2.45% 41.65%

    Predicted dad's dad:

    27.93% 14.97% 8.22% 7.39% 0.76% 3.19% 37.53%

    Genetic recombination means that isn't worth much, but it's a guess. Nobody else in my family has those matches to the Jatts that he does and that's where his mom is from, so they're from his dad.

    I've got the results of his mother's first cousins and the family average is 38% Baloch in Harappaworld. My dad has 34.64%. And I don't think his dad had 30% lol, so... not sure what happened there. Probably same as me, since I have 34.88% Baloch, which is not halfway between my mom and dad, but just straight on my dad. So his dad probably was like 34% Baloch.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...GMo/edit#gid=6

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Mo/edit#gid=22

    light blue are my family or anyone else confirmed to be from near faisalabad or related to us.

    Dad looks like someone swapped a straight 7% from NE-Euro to S-Indian from a Haryana Jat. Likewise, my closest Harappa Oracle fits are like 85% Punjabi Jatt Sikh + 15% Irula. Closest single distance fits often include MonkeyDLuffy I've noticed.

    This is me:

    Code:
    ,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22,PC23,PC24,PC25
    HRP0349_scaled,0.064879,-0.021326,-0.113136,0.087533,-0.070475,0.049921,-0.00235,0.004615,0.010431,0.007654,-0.003897,0.002398,-0.000595,0.005367,0.001357,-0.002387,-0.018515,-0.00228,0.003142,-0.007629,0.001872,-0.006059,0.003821,0.005422,-0.002754
    This is my sister:

    Code:
    ,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22,PC23,PC24,PC25
    DRMS_scaled,0.07057,-0.014217,-0.110119,0.086241,-0.070475,0.049085,0.00517,0.005769,0.010226,0.005649,-0.009581,0.004346,0.001933,0.00289,0.003936,0.005038,-0.006389,-0.001014,-0.000628,-0.002126,0.000624,-0.000989,0.010106,0.006507,-0.007784
    Last edited by Dr_McNinja; 05-26-2019 at 08:02 PM.
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J2b2a2b1*) (Hidden Content ) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a* (FTDNA Kit 329180) (YFull: YF63773)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2d5a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494) (FTDNA Kit 311047), mtDNA: Hidden Content (FTDNA Kit B6225) (YFull: YF02959) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2* Y7+ Y29+ (R-Y29) (FTDNA Kit 329181))

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  8. #4895
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The question is does Sintashta have extra EEF compared to Potapovka 1 right underneath it, of the same Z94 Z2121 line, and 500-800 years earlier?
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/0...a-outlier.html
    Davidski:
    "the dating of his burial site, 2925-2536 calBCE, suggests that he lived not long after the Z93 and Z94 mutations came into existence ... clusters further west than most Corded Ware individuals from Germany ... using qpAdm ... 63.7% Yamnaya Samara and 36.3% German Middle Neolithic ... Considering that Poltavka outlier came from a Kurgan burial, and was therefore an individual of some social standing, he might be the direct ancestor of many millions of present-day Asians."

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  10. #4896
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    Does Iran_Chl have EEF?
    Paternal - Y-DNA: J2b2* (J-M241) Z2432+ Z2433+ Y978+ (J2b2a2b1*) (Hidden Content ) (YFull: YF02959) (FTDNA Kit B6225), mtDNA: M18a* (FTDNA Kit 329180) (YFull: YF63773)
    Maternal- Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2d5a* L657+ Y7+ (R-Y16494) (FTDNA Kit 311047), mtDNA: Hidden Content (FTDNA Kit B6225) (YFull: YF02959) (Mother's Mother's Father: R1a1a1b2a1a2c2* Y7+ Y29+ (R-Y29) (FTDNA Kit 329181))

  11. #4897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_McNinja View Post
    Does Iran_Chl have EEF?
    You mean ANF , plenty of it (50%), the Euro EEF variant ,no.

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  13. #4898
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    If ancestral Brahmins were extra Steppe-rich with low IranN, assuming we get aDNA evidence for it, it solves everything.
    The high steppe-to-IranN ratio proto pop arrived in SouthAsia(from the N/W geographically)... the ancestors of modern NW Brahmins got admixture from local IranN rich and lower AASI pops in the NW, while the ancestors of Gangetic Brahmins moved further east where IranN was much lower, so they got admixture from high AASI local pops.
    Yes that seems to be the gist of it.

    Basically were all in agreement that we need more than Swat Indo-Aryan samples

    This is very obvious when it comes to Jatts and Rors, but less obvious (you need to dig deeper) when it comes to steppe rich Nepalese and Gangetic Brahmins (and Rajasthani), and other Brahmins to a lesser extent but they dont have the steppe ratio that Gangetic Brahmins have
    Last edited by bmoney; 05-27-2019 at 01:21 AM.

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  15. #4899
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    I'm not in any position to question or even comment on formal population genetics stats (basically no experience in it), but I can certainly comment on the modeling being used.

    One issue with Narasimhan that I'm sure of is that their 3-way modeling using Steppe-IVCp-OngeAASI does not work as nicely for ethnic groups like Nepali Bahuns that clearly have ~7% direct East Asian from ATB descended groups. So, I'm pretty sure the Bahuns' Narasimhan OngeAASI lumps East Asia, thus inflating OngeAASI a bit. Otherwise, their modeling makes Bahuns almost identical to UttarPradesh Brahmins, but everything else shows much lower EastAsian and higher AASI for UP Brahmins.

    As far as ANE "inflating" Steppe in the Narasimhan modeling, I find it hard to believe because non-Steppe ANE (already present in South Asia) should go to IVCp and may be even OngeAASI and not inflate Steppe much at all.

    Basically, Narasimhan 2018's focus appear to be distinguishing Brahmins from other groups (both fellow interior SouthAsians as well as periphery ones like Kalash) using the Steppe-IranN ratio differences. That was why they had every type of Brahmin groups(for eg: Christian/Catholic Brahmins etc) from all over India. We should wait for more data and a formal release of the paper or new papers that might use other types of modeling. The simulated OngeAASI can be problematic in itself.
    This is plausible, however we have actual data that Paniya are more ANE than 40% of their Ganj Dareh levels would suggest - and have higher MA-1 affinities outside steppe which DMXX clearly modelled recently

    Their extra ANE predated IVCp and is either ancient WSHG related or even earlier suggesting AASI affinity with MA-1, therefore it is clearly not Sintastha related. If AASI has ancient ANE related affinities, that would call BS on more claims of ANE as 'West Eurasian'. @Chad Rohlfsen if youre reading, are you able to deduce if the ANE in the Paniya (outside the 25% Iran_N) is a WSHG migration or a part of their AASI component?

    The fact that Paniya keep showing up with extra non-SISBA3 Sintashta in nmonte suggests ancient ANE related affinities between both groups, it is unlikely they have Brahmin parentage as they occupy inland forest lands that Brahmins never expanded into

    Also Brahmins vary all over which I agree with you, Konkan and South Brahmins are basically West Indian with a bit of steppe and are quite distant to UP Brahmins

    Pegasus mentioned that it was a bit weird how they excluded Baloch/Brahui from the analysis due to West Asian ancestry or something IIRC

    agree with you that their Onge component soaks up E Asian in some cases, their component was not refined enough
    Last edited by bmoney; 05-27-2019 at 01:34 AM.

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  17. #4900
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    I disagree with an assertion like that . You cannot surmise something so sweeping like that , lot of members here are more than often ahead of the curve in terms of what is being published, the Wang paper was a definite case and point. We have plenty of scientists and MENSA members on here coupled with enthusiasts and often new members can have "superior pattern recognition" as they have a different perspective and think out of the box. While yeah I get your point, the reality there are experts, that does not mean someone who is a novice should have his perspective ignored even if we disagree.
    I agree, Razib maybe a genius, but his post like the blog was reductive if anything. Using Onge coupled with IVCp inflates AASI considerably and dampens Iran_N considerably and using Steppe MLBA as a catch all for excess AG3/MA1 ancestry is incorrect for all the reasons DMXX said yesterday and Chad stated months ago.
    I agree the statement was too sweeping, but a few details:

    Onge coupled with IVCp inflates AASI considerably and dampens Iran_N considerably - what would be an alternate model? I agree that a BMAC type component seems to be missing. The later Damgaard paper modelled South Asian pops as majority Namazga + AASI

    using Steppe MLBA as a catch all for excess AG3/MA1 ancestry is incorrect for all the reasons DMXX said yesterday and Chad stated months ago

    I've always stated this point as ANE levels clearly exceed their level based on inferred steppe ancestry in South Asian pops, check the post above this reply

    Also even if Steppe MLBA is an inflated component, Gangetic +Nepali Brahmins have a higher ratio of it to Iran_N compared to like-for-like components in NW Brahmins and Khatris, which is related to the point Razib was making and was never picked up on this forum.

    When tied to R1a, it makes a compelling case for the fact that we have missing samples

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