Cannot find anybody on FTDNA either!Originally Posted by Coldmountains
Cannot find anybody on FTDNA either!
Coldmountains (02-09-2021), discreetmaverick (02-09-2021)
do you have these high WHG coming up in your andhra kits??
I was looking at HGDP Sindhi samples on Vahaduo and there seemed to be clear variation, one closely matching Khatris. One as u described looks like a Baloch admixed, due to an elevated Iron Age NW Iran ancestry than the rest. NW Iran Iron Age type ancestry seems higher in these samples than Swat Iron Age group. What do u think? I used 0 - 1000 BCE (Iron Age) G25 Calculator by ph2ter but added the appropriate ancestral samples.
Attachment 43547
Target: Kapisa_scaled
Distance: 1.7453% / 0.01745296
44.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
35.0 UZB_Bustan_BA
18.0 KAZ_Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1
2.6 MNG_East_N
Mitochondrial Haplogroup: R30b found in Shahr-I-Sokhta_BA1 subclades found in Swat IA:Leobanr, Katelai & Barikot Historic.
heksindhi (02-26-2021)
The Sindhi samples in the G25 sheet are a somewhat arbitrary selection (I assume they're randomly selected). I think using all HGDP samples gives a clearer view. I simulated the G25 coordinates for the entire set and modeled them with IVCp, BMAC and Steppe. A few real samples are included in the model as controls to validate the accuracy of the simulation (close enough for my purposes)
If you remove the outliers at the top and bottom of the chart, the remainder are fairly homogenous. I do think that there are 2 variations on 'native' Sindhis. My current thinking is that Sindh was re-populated (following the collapse of the IVC) by Indo-Aryan types similar to the Swat-IA groups. These groups formed settlements along the Indus river and there is clear continuity between these early settlers and present day 'urban' (read de-tribalized) groups found anywhere from Hyderabad to Multan (or further depending on how you define historical Sindh). The 'rural' groups are different in the sense that they've acquired additional inputs via back-migration to Sindh from the west (Balochistan) and, to a lesser extent, the east (Thar). The Seh Gabi represents input from the West, while the elevation in SiS BA3 suggests input from the east.
Last edited by heksindhi; 02-26-2021 at 06:11 AM.
AlluGobi (02-28-2021), ammi (02-27-2021), discreetmaverick (02-26-2021), Jatt1 (02-27-2021), Kapisa (02-26-2021), laltota (02-26-2021), Reza (03-02-2021), ThaYamamoto (02-26-2021)
Interestingly, samples from Pothohar/Saraiki Waseb, Central Punjab and Azad Kashmir also fall roughly along the same variation (something, with regional particularities ofcourse. Punjabi and Sindhi do arise from the same NW Indo Aryan Prakrits so it would make sense for the genetics to follow the same trend. Do u have G25 for Hindu Sindhis? Where do they fall along this variation?The Sindhi samples in the G25 sheet are a somewhat arbitrary selection (I assume they're randomly selected). I think using all HGDP samples gives a clearer view. I simulated the G25 coordinates for the entire set and modeled them with IVCp, BMAC and Steppe. A few real samples are included in the model as controls to validate the accuracy of the simulation (close enough for my purposes)
If you remove the outliers at the top and bottom of the chart, the remainder are fairly homogenous. I do think that there are 2 variations on 'native' Sindhis. My current thinking is that Sindh was re-populated (following the collapse of the IVC) by Indo-Aryan types similar to the Swat-IA groups. These groups formed settlements along the Indus river and there is clear continuity between these early settlers and present day 'urban' (read de-tribalized) groups found anywhere from Hyderabad to Multan (or further depending on how you define historical Sindh). The 'rural' groups are different in the sense that they've acquired additional inputs via back-migration to Sindh from the west (Balochistan) and, to a lesser extent, the east (Thar). The Seh Gabi represents input from the West, while the elevation in SiS BA3 suggests input from the east.
Also can we continue this discussion on South Asian G25 thread?
Last edited by Kapisa; 02-26-2021 at 02:52 AM.
Target: Kapisa_scaled
Distance: 1.7453% / 0.01745296
44.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
35.0 UZB_Bustan_BA
18.0 KAZ_Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1
2.6 MNG_East_N
Mitochondrial Haplogroup: R30b found in Shahr-I-Sokhta_BA1 subclades found in Swat IA:Leobanr, Katelai & Barikot Historic.
Hopefully one of the admins will move these posts to the South Asian G25 thread. If you exclude the Hindus from the Thar region (more appropriately grouped with Rajasthani populations), the primary Sindhi Hindu groups are mainly of Lohana or Arora extraction. In terms of G25 samples, they can be represented fairly well by Punjabi Khatris. Using Khatris as proxies for Sindhi Hindus, or to take it one step further, as stand-ins for the original Indo-Aryan settlers, works quite well as the Khatri average fits right in the middle of the Sindhi distribution. The only difference is the lack of Seh Gabi but the overall proportions of BMAC/Steppe/IVC are almost exactly the same.
Last edited by heksindhi; 02-26-2021 at 06:07 AM.
AlluGobi (02-28-2021), discreetmaverick (02-26-2021), Jatt1 (02-27-2021), Kapisa (02-26-2021), laltota (02-26-2021), MonkeyDLuffy (02-26-2021), parasar (02-26-2021), Sapporo (02-26-2021)
It's been a while since I've looked at G25 coordinates.
Would anyone recommend any appropriate ancient east asian samples that would be suitable for Bangladeshis? I understand there have been lots of relatively recently released samples.
Also - as a base - what would be a suitable model for Bengalis - or at least the non-East Asian part using ancient samples?
Paternal; Y-DNA: R1a-L657> Y6> Y11> Y920*
Paternal; mtDNA: M5b'c
Maternal; Y-DNA: R1a-L657> Y6
Maternal; mtDNA: M4b1
Maternal Grandmother; Y-DNA: R1a-L657> Y6
Maternal Grandfather; mtDNA: M3a1
Maternal Grandfather MGF; Y-DNA: Q-M346
Coldmountains (03-02-2021), ESPLover4 (03-03-2021), FrostAssassin0701 (03-02-2021), Jatt1 (03-02-2021)
Anyone wanna offer up a model for pashtuns would be appreciated. Pakistani and Afghan. These guys can sometimes superficially appear like other NW South-Asians but as far as I know they often have different ancestral sources? The difference seems to be Seh Gabi oriented but I need yall input.
Code:Target: Pashtun Distance: 2.5058% / 0.02505807 38.2 KAZ_Kangju 37.2 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 24.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C Target: Yusufzai Distance: 2.7258% / 0.02725809 37.4 KAZ_Kangju 36.2 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 26.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C Target: Tarkalani Distance: 2.8948% / 0.02894760 39.2 KAZ_Kangju 33.0 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 27.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C Target: Uthmankhel Distance: 2.6889% / 0.02688939 40.2 KAZ_Kangju 33.2 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 26.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C Target: Pashtun:Pashtun2_20Af Distance: 2.8330% / 0.02832990 32.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C 24.6 Saka_Tian_Shan 23.8 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 19.6 KAZ_Kangju
Coldmountains (03-03-2021), ESPLover4 (03-03-2021)
What era samples are you looking for? Have you tried the reduce feature? PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o is the base for most Bangladeshis it seems. East Asian is much more varied like you can see.
4 populations
3 populationsCode:Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03793 Distance: 1.9643% / 0.01964286 | R4P 90.4 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 3.8 CHN_Yellow_River_LN 3.0 FRA_Occitanie_EMBA 2.8 VNM_LN Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03589 Distance: 2.7909% / 0.02790919 | R4P 71.6 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 13.8 PAK_Barikot_MA 7.8 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP 6.8 VUT_Teouma Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03585 Distance: 2.5280% / 0.02528000 | R4P 80.6 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 7.2 CHN_Miaozigou_MN 6.8 LAO_LN_BA 5.4 GRC_N Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03012 Distance: 1.9024% / 0.01902440 | R4P 66.8 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 24.0 PAK_Aligrama_IA 5.4 LAO_LN_BA 3.8 CHN_Miaozigou_MN Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03009 Distance: 2.0972% / 0.02097195 | R4P 76.2 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 9.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 9.0 CHN_Chuanyun_Historic 5.2 Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03007 Distance: 3.1760% / 0.03175952 | R4P 87.0 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 6.6 LAO_LN_BA 3.8 HRV_Cardial_N 2.6 CAN_400BP Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03006 Distance: 2.7024% / 0.02702383 | R4P 72.0 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 15.0 PAK_Katelai_LBA 9.0 LAO_LN_BA 4.0 ROU_N
5 populationsCode:Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03793 Distance: 2.0281% / 0.02028053 | R3P 90.0 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 6.8 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP 3.2 Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03589 Distance: 2.9372% / 0.02937236 | R3P 76.4 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 12.0 CHN_Qihe_N 11.6 PAK_Barikot_MA Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03585 Distance: 2.7511% / 0.02751147 | R3P 81.8 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 14.2 VNM_BA_Dong_Son_Culture 4.0 GRC_N Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03012 Distance: 2.0001% / 0.02000086 | R3P 69.6 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 21.0 PAK_Aligrama_IA 9.4 VNM_BA_Dong_Son_Culture Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03009 Distance: 2.2770% / 0.02276960 | R3P 85.4 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 8.6 CHN_Chuanyun_Historic 6.0 Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03007 Distance: 3.2502% / 0.03250238 | R3P 76.0 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 14.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 9.6 VNM_BA_Dong_Son_Culture Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03006 Distance: 2.9489% / 0.02948874 | R3P 85.2 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 8.6 LAO_LN_BA 6.2 ROU_N Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03793 Distance: 2.1226% / 0.02122597 | R3P 73.2 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 20.8 IND_Roopkund_A 6.0 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_IA Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03589 Distance: 2.8094% / 0.02809396 | R3P 59.2 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 31.6 IND_Roopkund_A 9.2 VUT_Teouma Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03585 Distance: 2.7511% / 0.02751147 | R3P 81.8 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 14.2 VNM_BA_Dong_Son_Culture 4.0 GRC_N Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03012 Distance: 2.0001% / 0.02000086 | R3P 69.6 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 21.0 PAK_Aligrama_IA 9.4 VNM_BA_Dong_Son_Culture Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03009 Distance: 2.2770% / 0.02276960 | R3P 85.4 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 8.6 CHN_Chuanyun_Historic 6.0 Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03007 Distance: 3.1845% / 0.03184472 | R3P 54.0 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 38.6 IND_Roopkund_A 7.4 CHN_Miaozigou_MN Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03006 Distance: 2.7733% / 0.02773331 | R3P 55.4 IND_Roopkund_A 35.8 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 8.8 LAO_BA
Modern 4 populations-Code:Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03793 Distance: 1.9439% / 0.01943924 | R5P 90.2 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 4.0 VNM_BA_Dong_Son_Culture 3.0 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP 2.8 FRA_Occitanie_EMBA Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03589 Distance: 2.7875% / 0.02787545 | R5P 71.0 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 14.0 PAK_Barikot_MA 7.8 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP 6.0 VUT_Teouma 1.2 JPN_Jomon Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03585 Distance: 2.4808% / 0.02480837 | R5P 76.2 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 7.0 CHN_Miaozigou_MN 7.0 LAO_LN_BA 5.6 PAK_Barikot_MA 4.2 GRC_N Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03012 Distance: 1.8984% / 0.01898445 | R5P 67.4 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 23.4 PAK_Aligrama_IA 4.2 LAO_LN_BA 3.2 CHN_Miaozigou_MN 1.8 VNM_BA_Dong_Son_Culture Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03009 Distance: 2.0098% / 0.02009766 | R5P 74.8 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 10.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 5.6 CHN_Chuanyun_Historic 5.0 Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C 4.2 VNM_LN Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03007 Distance: 3.0216% / 0.03021556 | R5P 75.2 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 12.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 4.8 LAO_LN_BA 4.6 CHN_Miaozigou_MN 2.6 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_o Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03006 Distance: 2.6198% / 0.02619806 | R5P 71.0 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o 14.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 7.0 LAO_LN_BA 4.8 DEU_LBK_UW 3.0 NPL_Mebrak_2125BP
Code:Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03589 Distance: 1.7549% / 0.01754884 | R4P 76.0 Dusadh 11.4 Bahun 8.4 Agta 4.2 Madiga Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03585 Distance: 1.2714% / 0.01271377 | R4P 73.6 Madiga 12.4 Burmese 11.6 Lak 2.4 Cree Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03012 Distance: 1.7315% / 0.01731466 | R4P 52.6 Piramalai 33.6 Gujarati 10.2 Tripuri 3.6 Khanty Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03009 Distance: 1.7425% / 0.01742539 | R4P 52.8 Chenchu 38.4 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh 5.8 Gelao 3.0 Santhal Target: Bengali_Bangladesh:HG03007 Distance: 2.0565% / 0.02056532 | R4P 57.2 Kol 34.8 Hakkipikki 6.0 Burmese 2.0 Nahua
ammi (03-03-2021), Coldmountains (03-03-2021), ESPLover4 (03-03-2021), laltota (03-03-2021), MonkeyDLuffy (03-03-2021), pegasus (03-03-2021), Reza (03-12-2021)
Their base ancestry definitely won't be Iran Chl sources like Seh Gabi or Hajji Firuz , those are for plateau Iranians, neither would SSo whose more a base for inner subcontinental populations. Most of them have the same IVC source as SPGT (8728,1459,1456), Southern populations favor more Iran_N richer sources like 1466,8726 akin to Baloch, though considering their genesis is largely in the late IA, a population on the TKM IA to Kangju cline is bringing pretty much all their Steppe ancestry, so I would assume Yaz people were like this. The Afghan Pashtun samples on G25 have elevated Slab Grave like ancestry as well excess Iran Chl since they have admixed with other populations especially in urban areas. There is considerable intra variation but there is a core ancestry among all of them and its largely derived from that TKM IA- Kanjgu like population. The extra ANF/PPNB in them can come from a number of sources especially considering these populations form fairly late but the vast majority of their ancestry is pretty much the same trio of sources found in other NW South Asian populations albeit in different proportions. Also we don't have genomes from the IA and the early Classical Age, but surely by then Iran_N richer substrate populations were likely very mixed and even had Steppe ancestry as well.
Code:Target: Uthmankhel Distance: 0.9644% / 0.00964398 | R4P 39.4 KAZ_Kangju 32.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 22.8 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA 5.2 TKM_IA Target: Yusufzai Distance: 0.9044% / 0.00904360 | R4P 38.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 38.2 KAZ_Kangju 17.4 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA 6.2 TKM_IA Target: Tarkalani Distance: 0.9821% / 0.00982062 | R4P 35.2 KAZ_Kangju 31.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 22.8 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA 10.4 TKM_IA Target: Kandahar Distance: 1.6661% / 0.01666148 | R4P 52.0 KAZ_Kangju 32.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 12.8 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA 2.8 MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1 Target: Tajik_Rushan Distance: 1.1141% / 0.01114141 | R4P 45.4 KAZ_Kangju 36.4 TKM_IA 14.4 TKM_Gonur2_BA 3.8 MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1 Target: Tajik_Ishkashim Distance: 1.2946% / 0.01294566 | R4P 63.0 KAZ_Kangju 18.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 16.8 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA 2.0 MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1 Target: Kamboj Distance: 1.1497% / 0.01149717 40.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 40.4 KAZ_Kangju 18.8 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA Target: Khatri Distance: 1.1704% / 0.01170376 52.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 37.6 KAZ_Kangju 10.2 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
Last edited by pegasus; 03-03-2021 at 09:06 AM.
agent_lime (03-03-2021), Coldmountains (03-03-2021), ESPLover4 (03-03-2021), MonkeyDLuffy (03-03-2021), MuslimPatel123 (03-21-2021), Sapporo (03-03-2021), ThaYamamoto (03-03-2021)
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