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Thread: Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

  1. #8861
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    The second part of the comment concerns culture and history, not genetics. People hundreds of years ago had no clue what “AASI” was and the existence of a south Asian substrate in eastern Iran and Afghanistan does not change how those people identify culturally. Sistanis and Bandaris are hardcore Persians, Kunaris are hardcore Pashtuns.
    You think I don’t realize that censored (culture/history vs. genetics)? Repeating the pan South Asian identity card isn’t going to change how people identify. People didn’t call themselves Indians either 200 years ago in Punjab or Tamil Nadu. Even the term Indian is of foreign origins. Ultimately, what matters is how people identify so why are you okay with Kunar Pashtuns being hardcore Pashtuns or Sistanis hardcore Persians but get triggered if everyone east of the Indus does not identify as distinctively Indian including their diaspora counterparts?

    People could identify as a purple spaghetti monster. I don’t mind. However, I’m not a fan of others forcing identities on to others.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 08-01-2021 at 10:36 AM.
    pegasus modeling:
    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

    avatar credit goes out to aaronbee2010

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  3. #8862
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    [QUOTE=Sapporo;788769]
    You think I dont realize that censored?
    Keep making assumptions about me based off what you assumed I believed.

    Repeating the pan South Asian identity card isnt going to change how people identify. People didnt call themselves Indians either 200 years ago in Punjab or Tamil Nadu. Even the term Indian is of foreign origins. Ultimately, what matters is how people identify so why are you okay with Kunar Pashtuns being hardcore Pashtuns or Sistanis hardcore Persians but everyone east of the Indus should identify as distinctively Indian including their diaspora counterparts?
    If they didnt, then thats good for them. However Id need a source on that. Im going to ask people I know because they might have something different to say, and I have no reason to think they wouldnt. So far the mentality Ive seen displayed by you and others in the same internet clique is the polar opposite of what Ive seen in real life from actual people belonging to your ethnicity.

    People could identify as a purple spaghetti monster. I dont mind. However, Im not a fan of others forcing identities on to others.
    Goes back to my point, your stance represents a small fraction of the people in real life Ive met including those of the same background as you. If thats the case, at least put out a disclaimer saying that your opinions are yours and yours alone. I just looked up photos of the Indian army and guess what, its full of turbaned Punjabis. Granted not all Sikhs are Punjabi but most are.

  4. #8863
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    You think I don’t realize that censored? Repeating the pan South Asian identity card isn’t going to change how people identify. People didn’t call themselves Indians either 200 years ago in Punjab or Tamil Nadu. Even the term Indian is of foreign origins. Ultimately, what matters is how people identify so why are you okay with Kunar Pashtuns being hardcore Pashtuns or Sistanis hardcore Persians but everyone east of the Indus should identify as distinctively Indian including their diaspora counterparts?

    People could identify as a purple spaghetti monster. I don’t mind. However, I’m not a fan of others forcing identities on to others.
    Punjab was not even a unified Subah until the Mughals and its geographical boundaries today are from British era which are non sensical at best carving away parts of Historic Gandhara in the north Historic Multan in the South and Nagara/Jalandhara into one unit when they existed as saperate entities previously. Parts of modern Punjab province are on the western side of Indus including Kalabagh and Derajaat. Even the river valleys of west of Indus (Gomal, Kurrum and Kabul) were Pashtunized relatively recently and carry an Indo-Aryan genetic and cultural imprint which any archeologist would know. Same goes for Balochsitan.
    The coinage suggests (according to Osmund Bopearachchi) that it was the Hindu-Kush mountains that served as borderland between what was considered by the Bactrian Greeks and later rulers as West and East.
    Buddhism survived in parts of (modern day Afghanistan) until much later due to isolation and its obvious Buddhism and its associated cultural tradition was transmitted from the East.
    Last edited by Kapisa; 08-01-2021 at 10:20 AM.
     

    distance: 2.13
    sample: Kapisa (Kapisa)
    CG IVCp IRN Shahr I Sokhta BA2 I8728: 42.5
    Dzharkutan1 BA Average: 37.5
    Srubnaya Alakul MLBA Average: 17
    Chokhopani 2700BP Average: 3

    sample: Kapisa:Kapisa-Dad
    distance: 2.0944
    Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 I8728: 41.5
    Bustan_BA Average: 37
    Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA Average: 19
    Chokhopani_2700BP Average: 2.5

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  6. #8864
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    The only ones who lean towards Afghans(I’m assuming you mean Afghan Pashtuns) would be the Pashtun and close related neighboring groups. There is no Afghan genetic profile, there’s Hazaras, Uzbeks, Pashtuns, and others while the Tajiks are the bridge between all these groups as they have a massive range.

    The Indus was the boundary of India historically and it divides Pakistan into east and west in other words two broad cultural zones. The eastern sections can be seen as an extension of India.
    What you're saying (about the Indus as a meridian separating two distinct cutural zones) is wishful thinking, and doesn't hold up empirically. If you have doubts, drive from Lahore to Jalalabad along the GT Road, and you'll clearly see uni-directional continuity of a primarily Indo-Aryan derived cultural domain into areas lands west of the Indus, but not the other way around. But in any case, no matter how Iranic lands in Pakistan west of the Indus have arguably become (since well into middle ages or even today somewhat there were clearly Gandharan/Dard derived local populations co-existing) it doesn't change the fact the Pashtun music is a bad emulation of North Indic classical music (down to the exact raags). It doesn't change the fact that Chapli Kabab is just glorified minced-meat in a Pakora mix. It doesn't change the fact the Karahi is a ripped off dish from Sivalik region Indic populations. Funnily enough the best daal I have ever had was Maash/Urad daal in lower Dir, and guess what it was run by Pashtun locals (Daal Khors by Afghan standards). On the other hand the only places selling Shinwari-style Karahi or Qabli in Punjab (are exclusively run by Pashtuns) since the locals don't really care for them.

    Frankly, Punjab is a bit too inward focussed and self-sufficient culturally, nutritionally and in other ways to be impressed by recent outside influences and Punjabi's have enough faith in the strength of their cultural integrity to hold up, no matter what. Pakistan Punjabi's were the only ethnicity in Pakistan who not only accepted, but even encouraged people to learn Urdu (a Central-zone Indo-Aryan language alien to the region) for the sake of constructive nation building after the creation of Pakistan (and they were right, Punjabiyat is still very much intact and dominant in Pakistan, but the display of acceptance and inclusivity has kept a collective intra-ethnic narrative for Pakistan afloat in parallel). The average Pak Punjabi will agitate much less when they see a few million Afghan refugees show at their doorstep, but I can imagine a genocide-like situation if a few hundred thousand Indics choose to show up in Quetta. In fact, part and parcel of Punjabi identity (due to our history) is that any one who has come here to this region historically (from Seleucids to Duranni's) hasn't lasted one generation without yielding their identity to the local culture willfully. If you look at Pashtuns who have settled in Karachi (some are now 3rd generation settlers) their kids still speak Pashto and refer back to their native villages when you ask where they are from, they still visit their families back in KPK or FATA for Eid. That doesn't happen in Punjab and I have seen it many times, they end up loosing that connection. By the second generation these kids will speak Punjabi more fluently than Pashto and at least half of them will end up marrying non-Pashtuns.
    Last edited by kamil154; 08-01-2021 at 05:30 PM.
    Mehrgarh v2.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.1
    Indo-Turanian Farmer (N/LCA): 33.6 (Mehrgarh Pre-Pottery: 19.2 + Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist: 14.4)
    South Asian HG (MP): 22.2
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 17.6
    Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (EBA): 16
    Pamir Knot HG (LM): 10.2

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  8. #8865
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaazi View Post
    Thank you for your input.

    What observations can be made about Brahmin-UP from your runs? Imo, the Brahmin UP is a good representation of Gangetic Brahmins only bugged by the unexpected East Asian admixture.

    Is it that the NW pops' Iranian farmer base were two: PPN and BA1 (subsequent addition) like your own modelling but the latter farmer component mostly lacks in pops east and south of NW region? What's with the total lack of BMAC input in Brahmin-UP?
    Yes it does seem to have a more NW bias. SPGT ancients, Pothwari, and Gujjars are all examples of pops that share affinity with LCA Turanian pops but don't require BMAC input. As for UP Brahmins we don't have enough high quality samples on GenoPlot so I cant say definitively, but from what I've seen in other UP pops such as Jatts and Bihari Brahmins, they do have reasonable BMAC input (but into a more Pre-Pottery related Neolithic/Eneolithic base). Don't know what the case is with this Tibetan shifted individual you shared specifically.
    Last edited by kamil154; 08-01-2021 at 05:51 PM.
    Mehrgarh v2.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.1
    Indo-Turanian Farmer (N/LCA): 33.6 (Mehrgarh Pre-Pottery: 19.2 + Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist: 14.4)
    South Asian HG (MP): 22.2
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 17.6
    Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (EBA): 16
    Pamir Knot HG (LM): 10.2

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  10. #8866
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaazi View Post
    Did you also reduce the AASI like ancestry from Tibetan ancient/Chokhopani? Chokhopani seems less and the AASI/SAHG seems inflated by the same.
    Here's a weak attempt using Chokhopani and AASI Gonur2. It's pretty unusable though, we'll need to wait for some actual studies from that region.

    ESAHG,-0.21118197,-0.42380836,-0.08588451,0.11727045,0.01220103,-0.07125821,-0.07753548,-0.04530784,0.13877273,-0.03121874,-0.10158008,-0.11906444,0.10063306,-0.05803554,-0.13121303,0.17837621,-0.00402119,0.01295403,-0.0326297,-0.05796195,0.00371933,0.04737935,-0.01086141,-0.0135342,0.10403118

    Distance to: ESAHG
    0.43386940 CHN_Tianyuan
    0.43807886 NPL_Mebrak_2125BP
    0.44301675 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
    0.44339480 Tamang
    0.44372291 Gurung
    0.44419609 Magar
    0.44771921 Kusunda
    0.44856638 Sherpa
    0.44891555 NPL_Samdzong_1500BP
    0.44912269 Rai
    0.44945306 Tibetan_Shigatse
    0.45085542 Tripuri
    0.45139224 Tibetan_Shannan
    0.45223782 Tibetan_Nagqu
    0.45238609 Jamatia
    0.45389371 Tibetan_Lhasa
    0.45426491 Tibetan_Chamdo
    0.45462694 Tibetan_Xunhua
    0.45634293 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
    0.45656637 Burmese
    0.45707694 LAO_Hoabinhian
    0.45728890 Onge
    0.45747113 Qiang_Daofu
    0.45794266 Jarawa
    0.45929865 Tharu
    0.45969424 Tibetan_Yajiang
    0.45969888 CHN_Xiaogao_N
    0.46029071 Tibetan_Yunnan
    0.46035216 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    0.46137424 Yi
    0.46171651 Tibetan_Gangcha
    0.46187213 CHN_Yellow_River_MN
    0.46328639 Qiang_Danba
    0.46408673 Tu
    0.46430398 RUS_Sakhalin_HG
    0.46437637 Naxi
    0.46470067 Tibetan_Xinlong
    0.46636836 CHN_Xiaojingshan_N
    0.46759168 CHN_Miaozigou_MN
    0.46788816 CHN_Bianbian_N
    0.46920338 CHN_Western_Liao_River_LN
    0.46953132 Jehai
    0.47058794 CHN_Shimao_LN
    0.47215408 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_IA
    0.47238623 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
    0.47255523 Bonan
    0.47313707 Yugur
    0.47368508 Tibetan_Gannan
    0.47409697 MNG_Xiongnu_East_Asian
    0.47452867 Han_Shandong
    0.47525342 CHN_Western_Liao_River_MN
    0.47538263 Brahmin_Manipuri
    0.47609647 Han_Shanxi
    0.47617368 CHN_Yellow_River_LBIA
    0.47635201 CHN_Qihe_N
    0.47651115 Agta
    0.47676120 CHN_Yumin_N
    0.47686983 MNG_TUM001
    0.47709927 Aeta
    0.47740022 Salar
    0.47742484 Ngadha_Bena
    0.47801141 Dungan
    0.47801168 MNG_YUR001
    0.47812983 CHN_Western_Liao_River_BA
    0.47830950 CHN_Boshan_N
    0.47948869 Han_Henan
    0.47949856 Dongxiang
    0.47952312 Manggarai_Rampasasa
    0.47952421 Lamaholot_Lembata_Hadakewa
    0.47963822 Tujia
    0.47971190 Han_Zhejiang
    0.47976733 Lamaholot_Bama_Flores
    0.47977869 Han_Sichuan
    0.48109401 MNG_central_preBA
    0.48149841 Newar
    Last edited by kamil154; 08-01-2021 at 06:20 PM.
    Mehrgarh v2.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.1
    Indo-Turanian Farmer (N/LCA): 33.6 (Mehrgarh Pre-Pottery: 19.2 + Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist: 14.4)
    South Asian HG (MP): 22.2
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 17.6
    Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (EBA): 16
    Pamir Knot HG (LM): 10.2

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  12. #8867
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamil154 View Post
    Here's a weak attempt using Chokhopani and AASI Gonur2. It's pretty unusable though, we'll need to wait for some actual studies from that region.

    ESAHG,-0.21118197,-0.42380836,-0.08588451,0.11727045,0.01220103,-0.07125821,-0.07753548,-0.04530784,0.13877273,-0.03121874,-0.10158008,-0.11906444,0.10063306,-0.05803554,-0.13121303,0.17837621,-0.00402119,0.01295403,-0.0326297,-0.05796195,0.00371933,0.04737935,-0.01086141,-0.0135342,0.10403118

    Distance to: ESAHG
    0.43386940 CHN_Tianyuan
    0.43807886 NPL_Mebrak_2125BP
    0.44301675 NPL_Chokhopani_2700BP
    0.44339480 Tamang
    0.44372291 Gurung
    0.44419609 Magar
    0.44771921 Kusunda
    0.44856638 Sherpa
    0.44891555 NPL_Samdzong_1500BP
    0.44912269 Rai
    0.44945306 Tibetan_Shigatse
    0.45085542 Tripuri
    0.45139224 Tibetan_Shannan
    0.45223782 Tibetan_Nagqu
    0.45238609 Jamatia
    0.45389371 Tibetan_Lhasa
    0.45426491 Tibetan_Chamdo
    0.45462694 Tibetan_Xunhua
    0.45634293 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
    0.45656637 Burmese
    0.45707694 LAO_Hoabinhian
    0.45728890 Onge
    0.45747113 Qiang_Daofu
    0.45794266 Jarawa
    0.45929865 Tharu
    0.45969424 Tibetan_Yajiang
    0.45969888 CHN_Xiaogao_N
    0.46029071 Tibetan_Yunnan
    0.46035216 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_LN
    0.46137424 Yi
    0.46171651 Tibetan_Gangcha
    0.46187213 CHN_Yellow_River_MN
    0.46328639 Qiang_Danba
    0.46408673 Tu
    0.46430398 RUS_Sakhalin_HG
    0.46437637 Naxi
    0.46470067 Tibetan_Xinlong
    0.46636836 CHN_Xiaojingshan_N
    0.46759168 CHN_Miaozigou_MN
    0.46788816 CHN_Bianbian_N
    0.46920338 CHN_Western_Liao_River_LN
    0.46953132 Jehai
    0.47058794 CHN_Shimao_LN
    0.47215408 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_IA
    0.47238623 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
    0.47255523 Bonan
    0.47313707 Yugur
    0.47368508 Tibetan_Gannan
    0.47409697 MNG_Xiongnu_East_Asian
    0.47452867 Han_Shandong
    0.47525342 CHN_Western_Liao_River_MN
    0.47538263 Brahmin_Manipuri
    0.47609647 Han_Shanxi
    0.47617368 CHN_Yellow_River_LBIA
    0.47635201 CHN_Qihe_N
    0.47651115 Agta
    0.47676120 CHN_Yumin_N
    0.47686983 MNG_TUM001
    0.47709927 Aeta
    0.47740022 Salar
    0.47742484 Ngadha_Bena
    0.47801141 Dungan
    0.47801168 MNG_YUR001
    0.47812983 CHN_Western_Liao_River_BA
    0.47830950 CHN_Boshan_N
    0.47948869 Han_Henan
    0.47949856 Dongxiang
    0.47952312 Manggarai_Rampasasa
    0.47952421 Lamaholot_Lembata_Hadakewa
    0.47963822 Tujia
    0.47971190 Han_Zhejiang
    0.47976733 Lamaholot_Bama_Flores
    0.47977869 Han_Sichuan
    0.48109401 MNG_central_preBA
    0.48149841 Newar
    We know that WSHG were 30% EHG, 50% ANE and 20% of some sort of East Eurasian. I wouldn't be surprised if this type of mix is responsible for the vaguely East/South Eurasian pull in WSHG. The formation of WSHG itself might be the result of a Paleolithic South-North movement from NE-Himalayan type population (Haplos D,K?) into an MA1 type population (Haplogroups Q,R).

    The link between Tianyuan and Jomon and Proto-Tibetan populations is pretty well established by now and this in-depth paper on East Asian Neolithic ancestry had similar observations:

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...b-figures-data

    Jomon affinity observed in Tibetans
    Screenshot (1108).png

    Haplo D spread
    Haplogrupo_D_(ADN-Y).png

    East Eurasian Ancestral Tree:
    F2.large (2).jpg
    Last edited by kamil154; 08-01-2021 at 06:56 PM.
    Mehrgarh v2.

    sample: kamil154
    distance: 2.1
    Indo-Turanian Farmer (N/LCA): 33.6 (Mehrgarh Pre-Pottery: 19.2 + Sistano-Turanian Proto-Urbanist: 14.4)
    South Asian HG (MP): 22.2
    Proto-Indo-Iranian (MLBA): 17.6
    Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (EBA): 16
    Pamir Knot HG (LM): 10.2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    Punjab was not even a unified Subah until the Mughals and its geographical boundaries today are from British era which are non sensical at best carving away parts of Historic Gandhara in the north Historic Multan in the South and Nagara/Jalandhara into one unit when they existed as saperate entities previously. Parts of modern Punjab province are on the western side of Indus including Kalabagh and Derajaat. Even the river valleys of west of Indus (Gomal, Kurrum and Kabul) were Pashtunized relatively recently and carry an Indo-Aryan genetic and cultural imprint which any archeologist would know. Same goes for Balochsitan.
    The coinage suggests (according to Osmund Bopearachchi) that it was the Hindu-Kush mountains that served as borderland between what was considered by the Bactrian Greeks and later rulers as West and East.
    Buddhism survived in parts of (modern day Afghanistan) until much later due to isolation and its obvious Buddhism and its associated cultural tradition was transmitted from the East.
    Pashtuns were not the first Iranics in the Hindukush/East Afghanistan region you had people like Parachi-Ormuri (strong Indo-Aryan/Dardic substrate) already there before Pashtuns. Actually the latest found document in the bactrian language is from North Waziristan in the Tokhi valley dated to the 9th century. Regions in East Afghanistan had probably a quite early Iranic presence hence the frequent mention of regions around East Afghanistan in Avesta but most of the population would remain Indo-Aryan especially east of Kabul untill the arrival of Pashtuns. There unlikely was a clear and strict cultural border hence you see strong Buddhist influences up to Sogdia (probably also big Indic communities in cities of Central Asia) and Bactrian scripts in North Waziristan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Pashtuns were not the first Iranics in the Hindukush/East Afghanistan region you had people like Parachi-Ormuri (strong Indo-Aryan/Dardic substrate) already there before Pashtuns. Actually the latest found document in the bactrian language is from North Waziristan in the Tokhi valley dated to the 9th century. Regions in East Afghanistan had probably a quite early Iranic presence hence the frequent mention of regions around East Afghanistan in Avesta but most of the population would remain Indo-Aryan especially east of Kabul untill the arrival of Pashtuns. There unlikely was a clear and strict cultural border hence you see strong Buddhist influences up to Sogdia (probably also big Indic communities in cities of Central Asia) and Bactrian scripts in North Waziristan
    I agree. Borders both cultural and lingustic were fluid in this region. Coins and inscriptions from the region are usually multilingual and depict a variety of belief systems and cults present in the region and adopted by rulers.
    Sovereignty was not understood by populations in this region the same way we understand today in the western world. That is why Russians had a hard time negotiating the border with Central Asian nomads and the British with the Pastuns and Baloch tribes. Numerous small and large princely states remained sovereign within British Raj.
    https://youtu.be/n3XN42x__rc
    Khan of Kalat interestingly mentioned that Omani Sultan was granted Gawadar as a gift to settle by the Khan "as far as you see is your territory".
    https://youtu.be/RBO6QBpWFuw
     

    distance: 2.13
    sample: Kapisa (Kapisa)
    CG IVCp IRN Shahr I Sokhta BA2 I8728: 42.5
    Dzharkutan1 BA Average: 37.5
    Srubnaya Alakul MLBA Average: 17
    Chokhopani 2700BP Average: 3

    sample: Kapisa:Kapisa-Dad
    distance: 2.0944
    Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 I8728: 41.5
    Bustan_BA Average: 37
    Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA Average: 19
    Chokhopani_2700BP Average: 2.5

  17. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Kapisa For This Useful Post:

     AlluGobi (08-02-2021),  Coldmountains (08-02-2021),  parasar (08-01-2021),  Sapporo (08-02-2021)

  18. #8870
    Registered Users
    Posts
    540
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Punjabi
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Y6

    My paternal uncles G25

    Coordinates:

    AliRaza_scaled,0.064879,-0.016248,-0.110119,0.066215,-0.070475,0.040439,0.003055,0.003692,0.014317,0.008 383,-0.006171,-0.002248,0.000297,-0.008395,0.006786,0.008221,-0.008866,-0.000507,0.000126,-0.01063,-0.006489,0,0.001602,-0.003253,0.003952


    Target: AliRaza_scaled
    Distance: 2.2999% / 0.02299879
    52.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
    17.8 TJK_Sarazm_En
    9.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    9.0 Levant_PPNB
    4.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    3.4 Han
    3.4 KAZ_Botai
    0.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    Any thoughts? I can post mine in comparison as well if that helps

  19. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Raza94 For This Useful Post:

     AlluGobi (08-02-2021),  Amber29 (08-02-2021),  ESPLover4 (08-02-2021),  Kapisa (08-02-2021),  Sapporo (08-02-2021)

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