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Thread: Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    1] "distance%=2.1631 / distance=0.021631"


    Punjabi_Ramgarhia
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3" 48.45
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2" 21.15
    "Sintashta_MLBA" 15.45
    "Saka_central" 12.6
    "Dai" 2.35


    [1] "distance%=1.3763 / distance=0.013763"


    Sapporo
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2" 41.5
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3" 30.2
    "Sintashta_MLBA" 20.65
    "Saka_central" 6.65
    "Dai" 1

    Above is the other fit that MDL ran on R. My guess it is because the Saka_Central is different than the one on poi's tool. Like one is an average and the other an individual Saka Central sample.
    I get way higher fits of when I tried those outgroups you used, the fit is 2.32. With that Sheoran I got excellent fits between 1.5-1.65, but your fits are always above 2.0 I don't know why , you should be similar as the Sheoran sample but their ethnogenesis is a bit different, but that should not be the case , there is one Udegram sample who is very Jat like btw try using him.

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  3. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Hey @pegasus, what are you thoughts on the modern Tajiks(various subgroups)? Some groups are favoring heavily on the Iranian groups while some groups just need non-CentralAsian groups for lower fits. @Jesus mentioned earlier than Tajiks have relatively recent Iranian inputs. Would proto-Tajiks be missing the Iranian components otherwise? In these nmontes, they are majority Saka Tian Shan with significant western(Iranian) input.
    You should try using Fars, Persian and Mazandarani instead of bandaris. The bandari average is around ~5% SSA, which can make fits worse for populations with no SSA such as Tajiks.

    Itís very hard to identify proto tajiks or Pashtuns. Unlike Persians/most West iranics, Tajiks and Pashtuns have a complicated history. Pashtuns seem 40-55% Swat Indo Aryan, 25-35% Saka/Kushan/east iranic and the rest is either modern Iranian or Iran ChL. Their current language was brought to them by saka like groups, since itís closely related to Khotanese Saka. Pakistani Pashtuns tend to be significantly more Swat IA, and less east iranic/Iran chl. Keep in mind that the Saka/kagnju/Wusun samples are extremely diverse, so you might get different results with different samples.

    Tajiks on the other hands shouldnít be judged based on their minority groups. Most of the Tajik samples used here such as Pamiris and Yaghnobis belong to extreme minority groups. Yagnnobis live in west/Nw Tajikistan while Pamiris live in the Far East. None of these groups speak persian as a native language, which surprising especially for Yagnnobis who show 40-50% modern Iranian like ancestry. Yagnnobis seem to be identical to some Kangju samples as well. Pamiris on the other hand are more Saka like, less modern Iranian and sometimes more Indo Aryan like.

    Kangju/Wusun map


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  5. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Why would you say so? In that 3-way simulation, only AASI was a made up component. So, what they did was the least inaccurate given all alternatives. AASI is made up after all, so lumping East Eurasian is the least inaccurate thing they did.

    The most accurate thing would have been not to publish with the made up term, but ASI or AASI or AA7SI have always been made up. We kinda now know ANI, but still don't know the true AASI. Except it is pure East Eurasian.
    Actually its not pure East Eurasian, based off Onge/Jarawa , its about roughly 20% West Eurasian like, 80% Agta like , but with whoever the AASI is expect this ancestry to go up once they find them , though I suspect they wont be too different from Kharia Gond, though I do agree with Rediflal before he went full Kanye, that there will be diversity among them as you have Austro Asiatics from Burma and as well AG3/MA1 admixed types ie the ones who brought U2i (a,b,c) , 15-16 Kya as per the paper, so West Eurasian like ancestry would be higher in South Asian hunter gatherers compared to Onge/Jarawa.
    Last edited by pegasus; 07-30-2018 at 06:49 AM.

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  7. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Actually its not pure East Eurasian, based off Onge/Jarawa , its about roughly 20% West Eurasian like, 80% Agta like , but with whoever the AASI is expect this ancestry to go up once the find them , though I suspect they wont be too different from Kharia Gond, though I do agree with Rediflal before he went full Kanye, that there will be diversity among them as you have Austro Asiatics from Burma and as well AG3/MA1 admixed types ie the ones who brought U2i (a,b,c) , 15-16 Kya as per the paper, so West Eurasian like ancestry would be higher in South Asian hunter gatherers compared to Onge/Jarawa.
    Its funny because the Agta are mainly y-basal P, the ancestor of R and Q the steppe markers (excl R2).

    So another full-circle moment

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  9. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by prashantvaidwan View Post
    Look I m not defending anyone and dont deny sexual exploitation and that low female ratio in the region but this is the phenomenon in entire india, desire of male child is not specific to this region, but sex ration sinked here more drastically due to rampant female foeticide, it is getting better now. This tendency may be derived from the historical repurcussions. These people have suffered the wrath of all the invaders advancing for the Delhi reign. female security was always a threat for them.
    On another point, North West is the most humble region for dalits, its not like Bengal/Bihar feudals coercing dalits into slavery for generations and treated them like shits. Even today, ppl don't rent out a room to dalits in small towns of East UP, don't allow the marriage procession of dalits here and there, still can not eat and sit together with upper caste in villages. North West is not a heaven for dalits but still it is better than most other regions of India and it has been better historically also
    Caste violence seems pervasive through out India in particular in its rural settings, though it seems certain regions are far more backward and a caustic mix of caste , misogyny related violence is far more acute, in particular in the Hindi speaking belt. Why that is beyond the scope of this forum.

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  11. #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Its funny because the Agta are mainly y-basal P, the ancestor of R and Q the steppe markers (excl R2).

    So another full-circle moment
    Yes thats sooo true

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    I get way higher fits of when I tried those outgroups you used, the fit is 2.32. With that Sheoran I got excellent fits between 1.5-1.65, but your fits are always above 2.0 I don't know why , you should be similar as the Sheoran sample but their ethnogenesis is a bit different, but that should not be the case , there is one Udegram sample who is very Jat like btw try using him.
    I think Sikh Jatts and other Punjabi groups have significant 'native Punjabi' ancestry from Khatri/Arora type peoples which pull them away from proto-Jatts who probably more resemble West UP/Haryana Jatts.

    @Sapporo was saying there are Sikh Jatts who score 90% Khatri in oracles (high Caucasian) and some who score nearly identical to Haryana Jatts (high NE Euro) so it depends on the individual
    Last edited by bmoney; 07-30-2018 at 05:34 AM.

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  14. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    I think Sikh Jatts and other Punjabi groups have significant 'native Punjabi' ancestry from Khatri/Arora type peoples which pull them away from proto-Jatts who probably more resemble West UP/Haryana Jatts.

    @Sapporo was saying they are Sikh Jatts who score 90% Khatri in oracles (high Caucasian) and some who score nearly identical to Haryana Jatts (high NE Euro) so it depends on the individual
    Yeah because the same outgroups I used on that Haryana dude don't work on him, they are more Zagrosian shifted because I got Sapporo down to 2.01 , he was like 37.5 Gonur , the Haryana Jat was like 26, but had much more Steppe, the SIS3/AASI related ancestry was the same amount.

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  16. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Hey @pegasus, what are you thoughts on the modern Tajiks(various subgroups)? Some groups are favoring heavily on the Iranian groups while some groups just need non-CentralAsian groups for lower fits. @Jesus mentioned earlier than Tajiks have relatively recent Iranian inputs. Would proto-Tajiks be missing the Iranian components otherwise? In these nmontes, they are majority Saka Tian Shan with significant western(Iranian) input.
    Tajik is generic term for Persian speaking populations , these Pamiris are ironically similar to some Pashtun groups . For example, Farsiwan Tajiks , should not be too different from Iranian Turkmen, so they would work with regular plateau Iranian populations like ethnic Persians and those Fars samples, Bandaris as Jesus mentioned have an African shift and Azeris/Loris are way more Levantine shifted, so they should not be used. For Ishkashimi Tajiks using Saidu Sharif like populations is best to capture their AASI and South Asian related Iran_N, I noticed that with Afghan Pashtuns as well.



    nmonte1.JPG

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  18. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Yo Poi, I tried using the same combination I used in R to run me and sapporo, but the fits are very different, I dont understand why.

    Here is the central saka coordinates I used, seems like its not on david sheet anymore, so I am more confused.

    [1] "distance%=2.2485 / distance=0.022485"


    Punjabi_Ramgarhia
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3" 47.65
    "Saka_central" 28.25
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2" 24.1
    "Yakut" 0

    [1] "distance%=1.5728 / distance=0.015728"


    Sapporo
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2" 45.5
    "Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3" 28.7
    "Saka_central" 25.8
    "Yakut" 0


    While on the global25 tool it gave us way worse fit. Here are the coordinates of the central saka I used:

    Saka_central,0.00735,-0.0115667,0.0153333,0.0136167,-0.012,0.0015,-0.0002333,0.0003333,-0.0048167,-0.0129667,-0.00635,-0.0027833,0.0017333,-0.01525,0.0098167,0.00595,0.0007333,-0.00315,-0.0024,0.00745,-0.0163333,0.0057833,-0.0045833,0.0039,0.0009333


    Maybe David can answer as well.
    Also try this way to get an understanding on local populations


    "distance%=0.757"

    Punjabi_Ramgarhia

    Chenchu,49.2
    Sarazm_Eneolithic,12
    Tajik_Ishkashim,10.8
    Barikot_IA,8.8
    Finnish,6
    Sintashta_MLBA,2.8
    Sintashta_MLBA_o1,2.8
    Tepe_Hissar_ChL,2.4
    West_Siberia_N,1.6
    Sappali_Tepe_BA,1.2
    Scythian_AldyBel,1.2
    Jordanian,0.8
    Yemenite_Al_Jawf,0.4

    Nearest populations
    "Chenchu:CHEND85 Sarazm_Eneolithic:I4910 Sintashta_MLBA:I1008 Sintashta_MLBA_o1:I0983 Tepe_Hissar_ChL:I2512 Tajik_Ishkashim:tdj269_ishkashim Yemenite_Al_Jawf:Y223 Barikot_IA:I6547 Sappali_Tepe_BA:I7542 West_Siberia_N:I5766 Barikot_IA:I6546 Finnish:S_Finnish-3 West_Siberia_N:I1960 Scythian_AldyBel:I0577 Jordanian:S_Jordanian-1 Tepe_Hissar_ChL:I2337"
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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