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Thread: Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

  1. #2801
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    Caste among Pothwaris is not that much of a distinction as it is for most other parts of South Asia, Sis!
    Based on 2 Potoharis (you and Amber), it looks like Brahmins are more AASI and East Asian shifted than the Rajput and Brahmins are less BMAC. Steppe is the same. We need more samples from each ethnic group.

    Also, you need to check against the "lower castes" (dalits to be exact) really... Can't compare Rajput and Brahmin and say all within are the same lol

    Speaking of sampling, I'm currently requesting about 25 chettris of various surnames to get G25 tested. Even if 2 of them agree to do it, that will help a lot. I'm sure the Chettris will have more East Asian and less AASI than Bahuns, but I'm mostly interested in BMAC and Steppe variation within my Khas ethnicity. Gedmatch calcs have Chettris all over place with their East Asian though.
    Last edited by poi; 12-02-2018 at 05:38 PM.

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  3. #2802
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Based on 2 Potoharis (you and Amber), it looks like Brahmins are more AASI and East Asian shifted than the Rajput and Brahmins are less BMAC. Steppe is the same. We need more samples from each ethnic group.

    Also, you need to check against the "lower castes" (dalits to be exact) really... Can't compare Rajput and Brahmin and say all within are the same lol

    Speaking of sampling, I'm currently requesting about 25 chettris of various surnames to get G25 tested. Even if 2 of them agree to do it, that will help a lot. I'm sure the Chettris will have more East Asian and less AASI than Bahuns, but I'm mostly interested in BMAC and Steppe variation within my Khas ethnicity. Gedmatch calcs have Chettris all over place with their East Asian though.
    I know it sounds weird, but then I cannot think of any Dalit footprint in NW Punjab. Apart from that, the Muslims in Pothwar did receive some admixture flow from West Asia, especially Iran, through the past 800 years,as such you see their Iranic/West Asian admixture level higher than Hindus, especially the Brahmans, whose admixture percentages may have remained constant for much longer, with higher ASI. But on the whole it is fair to conclude that the distances between different groups are not very high, compared to the rest of the subcontinent.

    And you have two additional samples, Bolnat and Noman, which also happen to be in the same range.
    Last edited by Rahuls77; 12-02-2018 at 06:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    I know it sounds weird, but then I cannot think of a Dalit footprint in NW Punjab. Apart from that, the Muslims in Pothwar did receive some admixture flow from West Asia, especially Iran, through the past 800 years,as such you see their Iranic/West Asian admixture level higher than Hindus, especially the Brahmans, whose admixture percentages may have remained constant for much longer, with higher ASI. But on the whole it is fair to conclude that the distances between different groups are not very high, compared to the rest of the subcontinent.

    And you have two additional samples, Bolnat and Noman, which also happen to be in the same range.
    Are Dalit like people such as Mirasi Musali Motchi etc or is it something else? Id be interested to see theirs.(not here to offend anyone who is) noticed people in my village have started to take the title Rajput (who are musalis) too!

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  6. #2804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber29 View Post
    Are Dalit like people such as Mirasi Musali Motchi etc or is it something else? Id be interested to see theirs.(not here to offend anyone who is) noticed people in my village have started to take the title Rajput (who are musalis) too!
    Yes, must be them, though I was never really aware of them.
    Poi, you have your answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    I know it sounds weird, but then I cannot think of any Dalit footprint in NW Punjab. Apart from that, the Muslims in Pothwar did receive some admixture flow from West Asia, especially Iran, through the past 800 years,as such you see their Iranic/West Asian admixture level higher than Hindus, especially the Brahmans, whose admixture percentages may have remained constant for much longer, with higher ASI. But on the whole it is fair to conclude that the distances between different groups are not very high, compared to the rest of the subcontinent.

    And you have two additional samples, Bolnat and Noman, which also happen to be in the same range.
    It is hard to believe Punjab Lahore has, but other parts don't. Definitely correct me if I am off, but conclusions about an ethnic group's homogeneity based on the upper/middle caste results is going to be super flawed.

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  9. #2806
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    It is hard to believe Punjab Lahore has, but other parts don't. Definitely correct me if I am off, but conclusions about an ethnic group's homogeneity based on the upper/middle caste results is going to be super flawed.
    Agree, there are Mirasis, Musalis & Motchis,which Amber spoke of, probably these groups.

    But then again, Pothwar / Potohar has been separated from Punjab by the Salt Ranges, that may have prevented the caste system from coming into the form it has elsewhere. Having said that, there is a good possibility that it wasn't really ever that different from the rest of the subcontinent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    It is hard to believe Punjab Lahore has, but other parts don't. Definitely correct me if I am off, but conclusions about an ethnic group's homogeneity based on the upper/middle caste results is going to be super flawed.
    In Punjab, the most significant autosomal differences are between biradaris and churas. There is intra group variation among biradaris but it’s relatively minor versus the distance to churas. Chamars partially bridge the gap between biradaris and churas. A Jatt Sikh/Central Punjab Muslim Jatt, Rajput, Tarkhan, Arain, Awan, Kamboj, Hindu or Sikh Khatri, Brahmin, Gujjar, etc. might all call themselves Punjabi just like a Chura or chamar would but it’s clear Punjab has a unique tribal or “caste” system that doesn’t follow the traditional system in South Asia. To give it more perspective, Brahmins of Punjab aren’t remotely distinct genetically versus other biradaris. In other states outside the NW, they stick out more noticeably.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 12-02-2018 at 10:11 PM.
    pegasus modeling:
    sample": "Punjabi_Jat:Sapporo_AGUser",
    "fit": 1.1506,
    "IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3": 43.33,
    "TKM_Gonur1_BA": 31.67,
    "RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 25,
    "closestDistances": [

    avatar credit goes out to aaronbee2010

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  12. #2808
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    In Punjab, the most significant autosomal differences are between biradaris and churas. There is intra group variation among biradaris but itís minor versus the distance to churas. Chamars partially bridge the gap between biradaris and churas. A Jatt Sikh/Central Punjab Muslim Jatt, Rajput, Tarkhan, Arain, Awan, Kamboj, Hindu or Sikh Khatri, Brahmin, Gujjar, etc. might all call themselves Punjabi just like a Chura or chamar would but itís clear Punjab has a unique tribal or ďcasteĒ system that doesnít follow the traditional system in South Asia. To give it more perspective, Brahmins of Punjab arenít remotely distinct genetically versus other biradaris. In other states outside the NW, they stick out more noticeably.
    Yup, makes sense. That is probably because the ethnogenesis of Brahmins in South Asia was likely in the NW(in the Bronze Age) and they spread to various parts of South Asia(during iron and middle ages) and remained relatively endogamous, while the caste system develop from the ground up among non-Brahmins. If that's true, then the Brahmins from outside of NW are more NW shifted (i.e. more Steppe), while other macro castes are less steppe with other components(AASI/IranN) higher.

    Furthermore, Brahmins from UP and Bengal appear to have their BMAC lacking almost completely, so the "original" Brahmins that spread to the Gangetic plains(during early iron age) must have been a bit different from the latter Brahmins of the NW(who acquired further SCAsian from BMAC).

    Another, rather extreme, scenario could have been that more steppe rich group entered the Gangetic plains bypassing the NW(thus avoiding BMAC completely) bringing their R1a directly from the Siberian steppes. Or these pops got brahminized later when they entered deeper into Indian heartland.

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  14. #2809
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Yup, makes sense. That is probably because the ethnogenesis of Brahmins in South Asia was likely in the NW(in the Bronze Age) and they spread to various parts of South Asia(during iron and middle ages) and remained relatively endogamous, while the caste system develop from the ground up among non-Brahmins. If that's true, then the Brahmins from outside of NW are more NW shifted (i.e. more Steppe), while other macro castes are less steppe with other components(AASI/IranN) higher.

    Furthermore, Brahmins from UP and Bengal appear to have their BMAC lacking almost completely, so the "original" Brahmins that spread to the Gangetic plains(during early iron age) must have been a bit different from the latter Brahmins of the NW(who acquired further SCAsian from BMAC).

    Another, rather extreme, scenario could have been that more steppe rich group entered the Gangetic plains bypassing the NW(thus avoiding BMAC completely) bringing their R1a directly from the Siberian steppes. Or these pops got brahminized later when they entered deeper into Indian heartland.
    Just try to answer this, and I am not certain if these old samples are indeed adequately comparable to the original Indo-Aryans, why are the NW Populations closest to the ancient Gandharan samples,while the UP Brahmans relatively distant and rather siginficantly?
    The merit of my question depends if these Swati samples between 1000 - 400 BCE are actual representatives of the early Indo-Aryans. Its just a curiousity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    Just try to answer this, and I am not certain if these old samples are indeed adequately comparable to the original Indo-Aryans, why are the NW Populations closest to the ancient Gandharan samples,while the UP Brahmans relatively distant and rather siginficantly?
    The merit of my question depends if these Swati samples between 1000 - 400 BCE are actual representatives of the early Indo-Aryans. Its just a curiousity.
    My expertise level is likely not going to be adequate, so pegasus/bmoney etc can shed more light. I can still attempt to give my explanation:

    Based on G25, UP Brahmins are distant simply because they appear to have additional AASI from the deeper plains. The steppe level on UP Brahmins(and neighboring Bengal Brahmins) despite additional AASI, is higher than the NW Brahmins. That correlates with lack of R1a in the IronAge Swat Valley samples imo. Basically, those early IronAge Swat Valley samples(non-SaiduSharifs) might have been early IndoAryans in South Asia, but they weren't R1a rich Brahmins that populated the Gangetic Plains. And I don't know if SaiduSharifs represent IndoAryans... They could have been latter nomads from Central Asia... And there is that high AASI SaiduSharif very similar to the modern Dalits(non NW shifted).

    BTW, my brain hurts just thinking about this. Need more aDNA.
    Last edited by poi; 12-02-2018 at 07:52 PM.

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