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Thread: Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

  1. #4901
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Clearly Punjabi Brahmins won't be ancestral , Ror like populations work exceedingly well for them . Though we are assuming a one time event, Parasar's Shak scenario is possible in other words a second wave in the late Iron Age or early antiquity. After seeing the genomes of Empuries Greeks and the fact samples from Butkara had 0 Steppe, its very possible.





    Yes he is right, because the proto Ror I calculated should be a Steppe shifted version of that Zarafshan sample. Sakas entered via the Bolan Pass in Antiquity, Assumed L657 Indo Aryans as I mentioned earlier very likely came from the Gomal pass because it directly connects with cemetery H and there are early Indo Aryan sites in DGI and south of the Salt range. There are no linked cultures and assemblages with anything from Pirak, so the Balochistan scenario is extremely unlikely, two of my scientist friends in Pakistan confirmed this and this was also the conclusion of Dani. Ultimately the Punjab region and the borders around it are pivotal to understanding the spread of Indo Aryans into NW India and thus far it has many populations very closely resembling LBA/IA Indo Aryans. Among members on here you have Agentlime who is literally similar to those Udegram samples from 3kya and you have Aaronbee and his father whose results are very similar to that Steppe shifted SPGT sample from 3.2Kya. Composition wise also they both are one of the most western shifted I have seen among North Indian samples on G25, in particular Aaronbee who is both quite Steppe rich and has considerable BMAC ancestry. Another caveat is you have quite a few Punjabi groups who are "Steppe rich" Brahmin like but are not Brahmins at all, I don't see that any where else.
    Agentlime has lower Sintashta than some of the UP Brahmin and Nepali Brahmin samples - ill run an nmonte when I get home and hes certainly less Steppe to Iran N ratio wise

    Jatts like Arronbee are linked to a later migration i thought this was the most likely explanation? how are Brahmins and Jatts/Rors the same yet have different y-dna founders (i dont know what Ror Y-dna comes out like) and also the latters position in Indo-Aryan high culture.

    Also as we know, steppe ratio goes down in Jatts (low sample size though) from UP to Haryana to East Punjab to Potohar (basically resemble Gujjars) suggesting an East to West steppe movement (in Jatts)

    What are the other high steppe groups outside Jatts/Brahmins in Punjab? I know MDL has high steppe but I'm not sure if he is close to the Tarkhan average

    Pashtuns also are a high steppe group in the vicinity with high R1a - obv East Iranic groups will play a part too
    Last edited by bmoney; 05-27-2019 at 02:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    Interior Indians have some ANE, MA1 which inflates the steppe signal (probably from the tribals). This causes them to show more Steppe than they have. DMXX already went over it.
    Bruh, PJL type people exist in NW too

    Also highly likely that some of your Sintashta is BMAC/WSHG or AASI related ancient ANE too given MA-1 affinity in Paniyas that DMXX found and the fact that Paniya always score a bit of Sintashta if thats included in the nmonte

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    He is an outliner and probably a foreigner or an early immigrant of the Abashevo tribes which replaced Poltavka there. The site is also very close to the forest-steppe region and on theborder region between CWC- and Yamnaya-derived tribes. Sintashta is pretty surely not from Yamnaya. We already discussed this many times here. The autosomal and y-dna doesn not match. Also Sintashta shows archaelogical links to Abashevo and has EEF-ancestry and the material culture of Fatyanovo and Abashevo has GAC influences and they will pretty surely show similar amounts of EEF admixture like Sintashta. R1b in Sintashta is from assimilated locals.
    Sintashta (apart from outlier) and Yamna ANE levels are of different magnitudes, forgetting the EEF and Barcin of the former

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Agentlime has lower Sintashta than some of the UP Brahmin and Nepali Brahmin samples - ill run an nmonte when I get home and hes certainly less Steppe to Iran N ratio wise

    Jatts like Arronbee are linked to a later migration i thought this was the most likely explanation? how are Brahmins and Jatts/Rors the same yet have different y-dna founders (i dont know what Ror Y-dna comes out like) and also the latters position in Indo-Aryan high culture

    What are the other high steppe groups outside Jatts/Brahmins in Punjab? I know MDL has high steppe but I'm not sure if he is close to the Tarkhan average

    Pashtuns also are a high steppe group in the vicinity
    You also gotta keep in mind that Nepali Brahmins (especially those that are from hills) have other ancestral component (Chokhopani - TB admixture - 7% on average). Is there a way to find out which admixture component does it reduce to account for new component? Or does everything get reduced equally? If we find this out, we get proto-Nepali Brahmins. I don’t think they absorbed extra AASI while in Nepal because there are no high AASI rich groups living in hills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pnb123 View Post
    You also gotta keep in mind that Nepali Brahmins (especially those that are from hills) have other ancestral component (Chokhopani - TB admixture - 7% on average). Is there a way to find out which admixture component does it reduce to account for new component? Or does everything get reduced equally? If we find this out, we get proto-Nepali Brahmins. I don’t think they absorbed extra AASI while in Nepal because there are no high AASI rich groups living in hills.
    Agree, i differentiated Gangetic Brahmins and Nepali Brahmins for that reason, thought they both seem close to the high steppe proto-pop

    Where Gangetic Brahmins interacted with high AASI pops like Nepalis in the Terai, Nepali Brahmins mixed with Chokhopani and AASI mixes which means their AASI %ages are much lower

    Do you think SISBA3 type pops existed in Nepal prior to Khas migration?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Agentlime has lower Sintashta than some of the UP Brahmin and Nepali Brahmin samples - ill run an nmonte when I get home and hes certainly less Steppe to Iran N ratio wise

    Jatts like Arronbee are linked to a later migration i thought this was the most likely explanation? how are Brahmins and Jatts/Rors the same yet have different y-dna founders (i dont know what Ror Y-dna comes out like) and also the latters position in Indo-Aryan high culture

    What are the other high steppe groups outside Jatts/Brahmins in Punjab? I know MDL has high steppe but I'm not sure if he is close to the Tarkhan average

    Pashtuns also are a high steppe group in the vicinity
    Rors score more Andronovo like ancestry in gradient descent ie Sintashta + minor Dali like ancestry. The variance of Steppe between Agentlime and many of those UP Brahmins its fleeting at best , a 1-5% differential can be found within a group of relatives,so modeling them would be irrelevant.
    Where there is a marked shift is with Haryana Jats/Rors , going outwards, Punjabi Jats and Burkee/Parachi Pashtun like groups who harbor similar Steppe levels . Aaronbee in admixture looks like a LBA sample , I personally believe they receive their Steppe from a later migration as well but modeling wise for now it looks older.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Agree, i differentiated Gangetic Brahmins and Nepali Brahmins for that reason, thought they both seem close to the high steppe proto-pop

    Where Gangetic Brahmins interacted with high AASI pops like Nepalis in the Terai, Nepali Brahmins mixed with Chokhopani and AASI mixes which means their AASI %ages are much lower

    Do you think SISBA3 type pops existed in Nepal prior to Khas migration?
    I don’t think SISBA3 types existed in hills. It was heavily colonized by Chokhopani types, which is majority East Asian, with small amounts of archaic AASI. But some Chokhopani samples were showing little BMAC, probably because of interaction. with Khas people. Khas people migrated via Western Hills (probably after Indo Aryan expansion into South Asia?) to Nepal. Central and Eastern Nepal was colonized much later (only some 300-400 years ago).

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Rors score more Andronovo like ancestry in gradient descent ie Sintashta + minor Dali like ancestry. The variance of Steppe between Agentlime and many of those UP Brahmins its fleeting at best , a 1-5% differential can be found within a group of relatives,so modeling them would be irrelevant.
    Where there is a marked shift is with Haryana Jats/Rors , going outwards, Punjabi Jats and Burkee/Parachi Pashtun like groups who harbor similar Steppe levels . Aaronbee in admixture looks like a LBA sample , I personally believe they receive their Steppe from a later migration as well but modeling wise for now it looks older.
    5% Sintashta between pop averages is a big deal when most Indo-Aryan high castes are under 20% Sintashta adna (maybe less when pre-steppe ANE is taken out), and crosses a lot of geographical variance in South Asia, but again the point was Steppe to Iran N ratio - if Khatris/Udegram provided steppe to Gangetic Brahmins, they'd also have to provide the same ratio of Iran N, instead steppe is maintained or higher, Udegrams Iran N component somehow mysteriously partially dropped and AASI levels go higher - not considering the Swat Y-dna mismatch

    Re Jatts/Rors has to be later given they've managed to stay so distinct for so long in the Gangetic plains as youve pointed out, and unlike Brahmins Jatts/Rors don't have the literature references in Indo-Aryan texts to boot
    Last edited by bmoney; 05-27-2019 at 02:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pnb123 View Post
    I don’t think SISBA3 types existed in hills. It was heavily colonized by Chokhopani types, which is majority East Asian, with small amounts of archaic AASI. But some Chokhopani samples were showing little BMAC, probably because of interaction. with Khas people. Khas people migrated via Western Hills (probably after Indo Aryan expansion into South Asia?) to Nepal. Central and Eastern Nepal was colonized much later (only some 300-400 years ago).
    thats consistent with all the data ive seen and y-haps

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    thats consistent with all the data ive seen and y-haps
    Our surnames are also based on villages and they’re spread from Far Western Hills to Mid Western Hills of Nepal, suggesting that there was West-East migration of Bahuns into Nepal. It’s also possible that there were multiple waves of Brahmin groups that migrated into Nepal & mixed in with already existing Brahmin groups. My hypothesis is that some Bahuns migrated very early into Nepal (and mixed in with high E Asian scoring pops) & then later North Indian Brahmins that fled Mughals also migrated and mixed into our society? It’s also possible that some Brahmins that got invited to do priestly stuffs for Kings also mixed in. Our caste system is kinda unique in a way that we don’t have Vaishyas in our caste system. So basically we’ve Brahmin, Kshatriya, Kami (blacksmith and goldsmith), Damai (drummers/dholis), Sarki (cobblers), etc. It would be interesting to compare all these groups in g25.

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