Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

[xenus]

Color selection I think happened early in South Asia, and then the north and south pretty much settled to their equilibrium states, until again when the Europeans showed up. I recall MonkeyDLuffy had mentioned that in the Punjab fair color was not considered that much of an issue, and sometimes even a negative for males. For the south (Malabar coast), Marco Polo even mentions: "children that are born here are black enough, but the blacker they are the more they are thought of"

What do you define as early what about the impact of neolithic iranian farmers?

[parasar]

What do you define as early what about the impact of neolithic iranian farmers?

We don't know as yet when the Neolithic Iranian Farmers were in South Asia - mesolithic or earlier is possible. Iran_N in South Asia appears to have a very old presence. Perhaps the Rakhigarhi results will tell us more. As far as skin color goes I think they had no impact.

It is a steppe group partly related to Neolithic farmers that may have had more of an impact on that metric. These were also related to the Corded Ware of Europe. By early, I'm thinking of the so called second wave of Indo-Aryans/Scythians about 800BC.

[xenus]

We don't know as yet when the Neolithic Iranian Farmers were in South Asia - mesolithic or earlier is possible. Iran_N in South Asia appears to have a very old presence. Perhaps the Rakhigarhi results will tell us more. As far as skin color goes I think they had no impact.

It is a steppe group partly related to Neolithic farmers that may have had more of an impact on that metric. These were also related to the Corded Ware of Europe. By early, I'm thinking of the so called second wave of Indo-Aryans/Scythians about 800BC.

Wouldn't doubt the premise in the large but I haven't seen enough neolithic data from before/after myself. I doubt that such different populations would have had identical genes for color even if the end result would have a similar effect. For instance the genes of both Sherpas and Andeans have adaptations for breathing and pigmentation for living at high elevations but they aren't the same adaptations for breathing and due to having somewhat different looking skin i doubt those genes are the same either.

In the case of neolithic farmers moving into India the proximity means pigmentation genes could have spread in both due to selection but they were different enough I'd have to specifically go looking to have any confidence in it.

[Dr_McNinja]

We don't know as yet when the Neolithic Iranian Farmers were in South Asia - mesolithic or earlier is possible. Iran_N in South Asia appears to have a very old presence. Perhaps the Rakhigarhi results will tell us more. As far as skin color goes I think they had no impact.

It is a steppe group partly related to Neolithic farmers that may have had more of an impact on that metric. These were also related to the Corded Ware of Europe. By early, I'm thinking of the so called second wave of Indo-Aryans/Scythians about 800BC.

Do we see any evidence for a second wave in the Y haplogroups though? Most of the R1a in South Asia, and in the high steppe groups usually associated with the second wave idea, is L657. Since we've been unable to find L657 in ancient DNA what are the odds that the second wave was also L657 from the same homeland as the first wave?

[poi]

Do we see any evidence for a second wave in the Y haplogroups though? Most of the R1a in South Asia, and in the high steppe groups usually associated with the second wave idea, is L657. Since we've been unable to find L657 in ancient DNA what are the odds that the second wave was also L657 from the same homeland as the first wave?

The complete lack of R1aL657 in aDNA(so far) is pretty alarming. We have hundreds of steppe and periphery samples associated with IndoIranians, but no sign of L657. I cannot think of any other explanation beside the cremation practices by L657 branch of R1a. Basically, the most patriarchal branch of IndoIranians(particularly the IndoAryans) were exclusively cremating their males since the early BronzeAge. What do you think?

[Rahuls77]

The complete lack of R1aL657 in aDNA(so far) is pretty alarming. We have hundreds of steppe and periphery samples associated with IndoIranians, but no sign of L657. I cannot think of any other explanation beside the cremation practices by L657 branch of R1a. Basically, the most patriarchal branch of IndoIranians(particularly the IndoAryans) were exclusively cremating their males since the early BronzeAge. What do you think?

We need to go back in time and tell our ancestors to hold off from cremating all their deceased. Leave at least a few for us to sample!

[Censored]

The complete lack of R1aL657 in aDNA(so far) is pretty alarming. We have hundreds of steppe and periphery samples associated with IndoIranians, but no sign of L657. I cannot think of any other explanation beside the cremation practices by L657 branch of R1a. Basically, the most patriarchal branch of IndoIranians(particularly the IndoAryans) were exclusively cremating their males since the early BronzeAge. What do you think?

I think there had to have been a later wave that was L657 heavy. The Swat Valley samples are on average lower steppe than modern Punjabis, Pashtuns, Kalash, etc and they don't have much R1a. That second wave also surely played an important role in the ethnogenesis of the Braman caste.

[poi]

I think there had to have been a later wave that was L657 heavy. The Swat Valley samples are on average lower steppe than modern Punjabis, Pashtuns, Kalash, etc and they don't have much R1a. That second wave also surely played an important role in the ethnogenesis of the Braman caste.

My gut feeling in the spoiler:

 

There are basically two extreme options — either they were Brahminized in the mid/late IronAge(“Scythian” hypothesis) or they had already entered and entrenched in the culture, but cremated the heck out of their males to explain the complete lack of L657 in ancient records, despite the entire steppe regions being sampled pretty extensively by now.

I’m beginning to think that L657 was the earlier wave from the early Bronze Age steppe, either from the far west or from the extreme North, but not the “Northwest”. Imo they had a very patriarchal system and they placed themselves on top (based on their direct male lines). Swat Valley and folks like Kalash imo were female-mediated IndoAryans that either remained peripherals or stayed “lower” in the societal totem pole, while those already entrenched deep into SouthAsia(with a healthy dose of female HGs) became ancestral Brahmins. Without aDNA to support either of those, we will just have to wait.

[Censored]

My gut feeling in the spoiler:

 

There are basically two extreme options — either they were Brahminized in the mid/late IronAge(“Scythian” hypothesis) or they had already entered and entrenched in the culture, but cremated the heck out of their males to explain the complete lack of L657 in ancient records, despite the entire steppe regions being sampled pretty extensively by now.

I’m beginning to think that L657 was the earlier wave from the early Bronze Age steppe, either from the far west or from the extreme North, but not the “Northwest”. Imo they had a very patriarchal system and they placed themselves on top (based on their direct male lines). Swat Valley and folks like Kalash imo were female-mediated IndoAryans that either remained peripherals or stayed “lower” in the societal totem pole, while those already entrenched deep into SouthAsia(with a healthy dose of female HGs) became ancestral Brahmins. Without aDNA to support either of those, we will just have to wait.

What are you talking about specifically when you talk about the "steppe" region? At what point do you think this culture emerged? While they were still in central Asia, or having entered South Asia already?

I think that the Swat people were female mediated as well. They were probably the result of steppe admixed females marrying into local males.

[poi]

What are you talking about specifically when you talk about the "steppe" region? At what point do you think this culture emerged? While they were still in central Asia, or having entered South Asia already?

I think that the Swat people were female mediated as well. They were probably the result of steppe admixed females marrying into local males.

If you look at the ancient dna world map, you will find dna from all over West and Southwest Russia(Pontic Caspian regions), from west and east Siberia, from various parts of Kazakhstan/Kryzgstan/Turkmenistan from pre-EMBA to post-LBA. At least a dozen or so archaeological sites spanning thousands of years containing hundreds of samples. But no R1aL657 in those graves have been discovered yet.

As far as the origin of the culture, it could not have been further from those IndoIranian archaeological sites. We have parent/sister clades of R1aL657 all over those region/archaeological sites plus the modern IndoAryans’ steppe autosomes clearly point to that very region.

As far as their entry into South Asia, I have absolutely no clue. Personally hoping it was before or not much after the MBA and not because of Brahminized non-IndoAryans like the IronAge nomads.