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Thread: Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

  1. #5011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well i dont see how L657 arrived later with Saka. We have very many Saka genomes and L657 was not found among one of them. The easiest explanation is that L657 arrived via the Gomal pass like Pegasus assumes or via an another pass south of Swat. The early Indo-Aryan wave rich in L657 would be probably very Sintashta-like and similar to Pamiri and Jatts. Saka would be already more mixed and more Siberian/Yamnaya/BMAC-like. Also if Saka had such a big impact we would see a big Iranic adstrate in Indo-Aryan languages but except of Dards such kind of linguistic adstrate does not seem to exist at all.
    We have not seen Shak genomes from Khotan/Gosthan/Liyul which is the Shak related to the Indic one, or the Shak ones from the Terai either which is the Indic one. Shak/Sak/Se is quite a generic term applied to all nomadic tribes from the Black Sea to SW China.

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  3. #5012
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    I agree that Saka ancestry is likely overblown and given unnecessary importance. Saka ancestry explaining post-IronAge R1a and extra steppe does make things fit a lot better, but might not have been true at all.

    Having said that, the term "mleccha" usage in the medieval times was accompanied by a tremendous(almost total) shift in the IndoAryan culture in the NW where the previous elite Sanskrit was replaced by Persian(Turko-Persian) and Persian was the defacto language of the elites, expect perhaps the remnant Brahmin priesthood still clinging on to Sanskrit. So, it was natural for the northern IndoAryan languages, by the medieval times, to have contained the Turko-Persian influence.

    If I am not completley off, the pre-Islamic-expansion era would have had some Persian/Greek influence through Buddhism that flourished in SC Asia, but Brahmin priests still would have had cultural/linguistic control in the NW. But the latter cultural shift due to Islamic expansion completely blew the lid off Sanskrit in the NW and previously culturally powerful Brahmin priesthood was relegated to a minority group, along with the uppercaste Hindus in the NW, with virtually no power over the cultural/linguistic landscape.
    It dates to the Zoroastrian period, I think, and definitely pre-Islamic. Islam just intensified the perso-indic divide.

    El Beruni: "In former times, Khurasan, Persis, 'Irak, Mosul, the country up to the frontier of Syria, was Buddhistic ... Magism in Balkh (Baktra) ...came into favour with King Gushtasp, and his son Isfendiyad spread the new faith both in east and west, both by force and by treaties. He founded fire-temples through his whole empire ... The succeeding kings made their religion (i.e. Zoroastrianism) the obligatory state-religion for Persis and 'Irak. In consequence, the Buddhists were banished from those countries, and had to emigrate to the countries east of Balkh. There are some Magians to the present time in India, where they are called Maga. From that time dates their aversion towards the countries of Khurasan. But then came Islam; the Persian empire perished, and the repugnance of the Hindus against foreigners increased more and more when the Muslims began to make their inroads into their country"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    two things are in this paper high% of y-DNA R1a in Bosnians and the Scythians and Sarmatians come from Iran their language is Indo-Iranian but they come from the steppe with contact with Eastern peoples (for example Botai) later with European Pouplationen and thus you differ genetically from your linguistic relatives the Persians
    Almost complete replacement of Euro Neolithic male lines by R1b and R1a
    https://youtu.be/oi1C1XMYU2Q?t=770

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Almost complete replacement of Euro Neolithic male lines by R1b and R1a
    https://youtu.be/oi1C1XMYU2Q?t=770
    It's weird that several neolithic male lines survived in the Balkans but completely wiped out in the Iberian peninsula, even though the Balkans is much closer to Steppe invader homeland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    It's weird that several neolithic male lines survived in the Balkans but completely wiped out in the Iberian peninsula, even though the Balkans is much closer to Steppe invader homeland.
    Yes the periphery - Iberia and Ireland - have some of the highest %age of R1b. They may have taken the N. Danube route and we are also seeing the surfing effect.

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  11. #5016
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    It's weird that several neolithic male lines survived in the Balkans but completely wiped out in the Iberian peninsula, even though the Balkans is much closer to Steppe invader homeland.
    Possibly because the invaders that entered Iberia were more genocidal.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article...tile-invaders/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    Possibly because the invaders that entered Iberia were more genocidal.
    There's probably a lot of theory out there from year's of research -- my totally layman pov would be by the time the IE reached the periphery they numerically outnumbered the locals for whatever reason (adoption of farming? EEF sex slaves?) and that numerical superiority helped carry out more effective genocide (males mostly).

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    There's probably a lot of theory out there from year's of research -- my totally layman pov would be by the time the IE reached the periphery they numerically outnumbered the locals for whatever reason (adoption of farming? EEF sex slaves?) and that numerical superiority helped carry out more effective genocide (males mostly).
    Well, whatever the case, the indo europeans who entered Iberia were already quite mixed(bell beakers, I think). Iberia has some of the lowest steppe in all of Europe despite the neolithic lines being totally replaced. So what we're seeing is a situation sort of similar to South Asia where there is a disproportionate amount of steppe haplogroups in relation to autosomal input-although it happened for different reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    My gut feeling in the spoiler:
     

    There are basically two extreme options — either they were Brahminized in the mid/late IronAge(“Scythian” hypothesis) or they had already entered and entrenched in the culture, but cremated the heck out of their males to explain the complete lack of L657 in ancient records, despite the entire steppe regions being sampled pretty extensively by now.

    I’m beginning to think that L657 was the earlier wave from the early Bronze Age steppe, either from the far west or from the extreme North, but not the “Northwest”. Imo they had a very patriarchal system and they placed themselves on top (based on their direct male lines). Swat Valley and folks like Kalash imo were female-mediated IndoAryans that either remained peripherals or stayed “lower” in the societal totem pole, while those already entrenched deep into SouthAsia(with a healthy dose of female HGs) became ancestral Brahmins. Without aDNA to support either of those, we will just have to wait.
    I like Poi gut feeling #2

    Also we have to allow for (or separate from our theories) later arrival nomad East Iranics who were Indo-Aryanised like proto-Jatts and Rors who seem good candidates for that genetically

    And other post Indo-Aryan Central Asian migrations, again who were Indo-Aryanised
    Last edited by bmoney; 06-03-2019 at 05:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    Would your central AASI proxy be different to the gangetic plains?

    I ask only in that Maharashtra would surely be an intermediate between South and NW rather than necessarily relevant to more Eastern populations like Bihar and Bengal.

    Though I suppose Madhya Pradesh and Chattisgarh with the tribal populations may well be relevant.

    For want of ancient DNA ...
    Reza, inland Maharashtra is very genetically and culturally distinct from coastal Marathi/Konkan upper castes

    My bet is the Vidharba region would score like Arlus/Chattisgarh non-upper caste

    Having said that some Marathas in G25 do have a lot of this inland tribal ancestry

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