Global25 automated nMonte for South/Central Asian members

**pegasus** · 01-13-2021, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by DMXX

Do we observe a similar phenomenon with Iranic-speaking populations in W. and C. Asia?

If Alalakh_o improves the fits for everyone (Hasanlu_IA + modern Iranians, Pashtuns, Balochis etc.) then that'd resolve quite a few questions (assuming the Alalakh_o = post-BMAC migrant archetype sample connection holds).

For Iranic populations in West Asia, I don't think , she has excess Central Steppe EMBA which populations like Hasanlu would not need I would imagine, my guess is her parents migrated from the Eastern BMAC. With just InPe and Steppe MLBA, SPGT still needs much more CHG, Eneolithic Steppe and ANF, she provides that. There seems to be a cline even within BA Central Asia, the further east you go, they seem to get more Central Steppe EMBA like Aigryzhal or Bustan_o1.

**DMXX** · 01-13-2021, 03:25 PM

Per the above, with GenoPlot once more.

Myself (NW-N Iranian / Turko-Iranic):

Iranian Lurs:

Balochis:

Pashtuns:

Yaghnobi:

In sum, modern Iranian-related pops don't like Alalakh_o very much over Gonur1_BA.

Cross-verifying against SGPT...

As you suggest, SGPT takes Alalakh_o over Gonur.

**Coldmountains** · 01-13-2021, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by tipirneni

Unfortunately the following existing distribution compiled by https://indo-european.info/indo-euro...outh_Asia-.htm shows the L657 was recent expansion from South Turan aided by recent Indo-Iran movements probably early Persian and later not the Median. The old Elamite and Aramites called Shemites had cline that you could see in the ancient samples which is not present in the samples in eastern parts of the steppe at that Bronze age and Chalcolithic timeframe. Some of those old Haplogroups like L, T, J2a are present deeply in the south indicating chalcolithic/Bronze era Dravidian like expansion in India not the fancied R-L657 Bronze age warrior expansion from Mittani

A quite late expansion of Indo-Aryans from a southern Turan region, suggested by the available ancient DNA samples, is also consistent with the greater linguistic diversity in the Hindu Kush–Himalayan area, including: Burushaski, a language isolate, with a majority of R1a1a1b2-Z93 and R2a-M124 subclades among the modern Burusho people (Thangaraj et al. 2010); the controversial centum nature of the Bangani language or its substrate; the presence of a third Indo-Iranian branch, Nuristani, in the southern Hindukush mountains; and the likely expansion of West Iranian languages from the Yaz core area, to the west of the Hindu Kush. This region seems also potentially at the origin of the distinction between expansions of R1a1a1b2a2-Z2124 to the north and R1a1a1b2a1a-L657 to the south-west (Underhill et al. 2015).

The simplified linguistic situation to the south-west, dominated by Indo-Aryan languages, is consistent with the Y-chromosome bottleneck of R1a1a1b2a1a-L657 lineages representing recently expanding Indo-Aryan speakers. Nevertheless, modern populations from the Indus Valley show a high proportion (ca. 41–76%) of South Asian lineages like C1b1a1-M356, H1a-M69, R2a-M124, J-M172, L-M11, or Q-M242 (Pathak et al. 2018; Ullah et al. 2017), which supports the mixture of haplogroups in the expanding early Indo-Aryan community, or their expansion from a south-eastern source. Supporting this interpretation is the distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroups among modern Yaghnobis of the Upper Zeravshan Valley, who show J2-M172 (30%), R1a1a-M198 (30%), R1b1a1b-M269 (23%), and K-M9 (12%), apart from other minor lineages (Cilli et al. 2019). The multiple ANI-related admixture events are probably coincident with population movements associated with the complex caste organisation based on the Indo-European-like varna and indigenous jati systems of social stratification.

Whereas the prevalent presence of R1a1a1b2-Z93, especially R1a1a1b2a2-Z2124, among modern populations of Xinjiang—who also show typical central Asian lineages—may support the early expansion of Indo-Iranian or Iranian peoples from the east, the finding of R1a1a1b2a1a L657.1 (ca. 8%) in the western site of Dolan (Liu et al. 2018) may be related to a recent expansion of the Indo-Aryan Gāndhārī to the region.

L657 rather seems to be associated with early Painted Grey Ware, early Vedic Aryans and later Gangetic Indo-Aryans than with Swat_IA and Gandhari. So i don't think much of the Uyghur L657 is from Gandhara and so far it seems that it diverged from most Indian L657 before the Iron Age, so could be partially from basal BMAC Indo-Aryans. Netherless with further sampling of South Asians maybe much closer matches will be found and some of the Uyghur L657 will turn out to be from the buddhist period. But even than it is more likely to be from the Indo-Gangetic plains than from Gandhara at least based on the ancient samples we have so far and Kalash, North Pashtuns, Burusho and so being not very rich in L657.

There is also quite much L657 among Tajiks, Uzbeks and Pamiri so Uyghurs could have L657 from their Pamiri/Tajik-like ancestry too.

**Coldmountains** · 01-13-2021, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by DMXX

This is fascinating to me. Wasn't aware of any Iranian L657.

Where have they been found, if you happen to know? Any information regarding their MRCA dating?

There seems to be L657 in most of Iran with around 3-5% in East and South Iran (Iranian Baluchs and Sistani likely will have more of it if deeper tested) and around 1-2% in West Iran including Azeris from Iran. So L657 seems to make around 10% of Iranian R1a. But afaik L657 is either absent or extremely rare among Kurds, Assyrians, Jews and other Pre-Islamic West Asians. It has a significant presence in Arab Gulf states but they have lot of recent ancestry from Iran, Gedrosia and South Asia and tribal Arabs more distant to the Gulf region seem to be mostly very low (under 2%) in R1a and L657 (with some spectacular exceptions like the L657+ Bani Shaiba and Bedouins under basal Z282*)

There is one Iranian L657>Y6 sample from Khorasan on Yfull (there are 7 R1a Iranian samples on Yfull) https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z29137/ .So far it seems that it diverged in the EIA from most South Asian L657 but with more South Asian samples closer matches will maybe be found.

Mitanni being L657+ or not is pretty much impossible to say for now. They likely had some of it, but could also have way more exotic Indo-Aryan clades. They even could be Z2124>Z2122>F1345+ like many West Asians (especially Jews) and Iranians/Azeri. F1345 diverged from most Iranic Z2124 clades already around 5000 years ago probably even earlier so some branches of it could be Indo-Aryan lineages, which were best preserved among modern day West Iranians, Azeri and West Asians. Without ancient dna this is not an impossible scenario. The lack of L657 among Jews/Pre-Muslim West Asians and presence of F1345+ among many of them and modern NW Iranians is in my eyes pointing to that, but this could be of course be a wrong conclusion based on bottle necked modern Y-DNA.

**Coldmountains** · 01-13-2021, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by pegasus

Israelites don't live in Northern Iraq/Western Iran at that time and L657 could have died out in the Levant and Mesopotamia. L657 does show up occasionally in Western Iranians and some groups around the Caspian so it is likely stemming from
Gorgan Grey Ware.

I read something about cultures with Grey ware in Arachosia/Sistan. Is there any connection to Painted Grey Ware in India or is this from common IVC-like influences predating Indo-Aryans from BMAC?

**parasar** · 01-14-2021, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by Coldmountains

There seems to be L657 in most of Iran with around 3-5% in East and South Iran (Iranian Baluchs and Sistani likely will have more of it if deeper tested) and around 1-2% in West Iran including Azeris from Iran. So L657 seems to make around 10% of Iranian R1a. But afaik L657 is either absent or extremely rare among Kurds, Assyrians, Jews and other Pre-Islamic West Asians. It has a significant presence in Arab Gulf states but they have lot of recent ancestry from Iran, Gedrosia and South Asia and tribal Arabs more distant to the Gulf region seem to be mostly very low (under 2%) in R1a and L657 (with some spectacular exceptions like the L657+ Bani Shaiba and Bedouins under basal Z282*)

There is one Iranian L657>Y6 sample from Khorasan on Yfull (there are 7 R1a Iranian samples on Yfull) https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z29137/ .So far it seems that it diverged in the EIA from most South Asian L657 but with more South Asian samples closer matches will maybe be found.

Mitanni being L657+ or not is pretty much impossible to say for now. They likely had some of it, but could also have way more exotic Indo-Aryan clades. They even could be Z2124>Z2122>F1345+ like many West Asians (especially Jews) and Iranians/Azeri. F1345 diverged from most Iranic Z2124 clades already around 5000 years ago probably even earlier so some branches of it could be Indo-Aryan lineages, which were best preserved among modern day West Iranians, Azeri and West Asians. Without ancient dna this is not an impossible scenario. The lack of L657 among Jews/Pre-Muslim West Asians and presence of F1345+ among many of them and modern NW Iranians is in my eyes pointing to that, but this could be of course be a wrong conclusion based on bottle necked modern Y-DNA.

We do have 4 Jewish samples in Underhill 2014 data that are L657.
"Non-Ashkenazi Jews (Spanish exiles, North Africa, Near East, Yemen) ... 4"
https://static-content.springer.com/...OESM15_ESM.xls

Turkey Central 2
Qatar 2
United Arab Emirates 4
Oman 2
Iran (set 1) 1
Iran (set 2) 2
Iran (set 3) 5
Iran Northeast 6
Iran South 15
Iran North 3
Azeris (Iran) 5
Kermans (Iran) 1

Proportion wise Iran NE at 4.7% has the highest.

**DMXX** · 01-14-2021, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Coldmountains

I read something about cultures with Grey ware in Arachosia/Sistan. Is there any connection to Painted Grey Ware in India or is this from common IVC-like influences predating Indo-Aryans from BMAC?

As far as I've read, this is a BMAC-related phenomenon, so there is a connection, but not mediated via the IVC.

Grey wares begin to appear around 1800 B.C. onwards in places like Yayha Tepe (NE Iran), sites near Kulli (Balochistan) and late stage Mehrgarh (IVC). There's a slightly older presence in Chalow Tepe (Khorasan).

Grey wares have an earlier presence in BMAC(-related) sites, like Parkhai or Namazga, around the Eneolithic to early Bronze Age (i.e. ~2500 B.C.).

Ergo, the dissemination of grey wares through to the Subcontinent and Iranian plateau during the Iron Age can be treated as a material marker for the movement of IA IIr's.

Could these be an artifact of trade? I'm no archaeologist, but I haven't (yet?) seen any mention of grey wares existing in Iran or around the IVC prior to around 1800 B.C. (which is the approximate date where grey wares begin appearing in both locations, and coincides with the collapse of the BMAC).

The pottery type of the IVC was (again, as far as I've read) mostly black with red bands. Said pottery was also found further west in places like the Kulli culture (Balochistan).*

* I'd taken this as a material indicator of the IVCp expansion further west.

**Coldmountains** · 01-14-2021, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by parasar

We do have 4 Jewish samples in Underhill 2014 data that are L657.
"Non-Ashkenazi Jews (Spanish exiles, North Africa, Near East, Yemen) ... 4"
https://static-content.springer.com/...OESM15_ESM.xls

Turkey Central 2
Qatar 2
United Arab Emirates 4
Oman 2
Iran (set 1) 1
Iran (set 2) 2
Iran (set 3) 5
Iran Northeast 6
Iran South 15
Iran North 3
Azeris (Iran) 5
Kermans (Iran) 1

Proportion wise Iran NE at 4.7% has the highest.

well these Jews could have later admix from Muslim period people (especially Jews in Yemen and North Africa). Also because we are talking here about 4 samples of overall 610. L657 is very very rare in the the Caucasus, Levant, Anatolia, among Pre-Muslim and Kurdish populations. Just based on modern Y-DNA it pretty much seems that in West Asia L657 is mostly restricted to the Gulf region and Iran with some small traces in neighbouring regions. But this does not say much about ancient distribution of course. But we know already from Kalash and South Asians, that there is plenty of Z2124 among Indo-Aryans of unlikely Iranic origin (diverged long ago from classical Iranic clades and found among Hindu castes) so Mitanni could be rich in Z2124 too. It seems, that the archaic Indo-Aryan wave into Iran brought some L657, which is still found today, (some L657 could also come later with Turks or historical migrations from Khorasan/Central Asia) but Mitanni Indo-Aryans seemingly were a subset of these "West Iranian" Indo-Aryans so they could end up with some bottle necked and very specific Y-DNA, which is not found among modern day Indo-Aryans or Indo-Aryans admixed people.

**Coldmountains** · 01-14-2021, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by DMXX

As far as I've read, this is a BMAC-related phenomenon, so there is a connection, but not mediated via the IVC.

Grey wares begin to appear around 1800 B.C. onwards in places like Yayha Tepe (NE Iran), sites near Kulli (Balochistan) and late stage Mehrgarh (IVC). There's a slightly older presence in Chalow Tepe (Khorasan).

Grey wares have an earlier presence in BMAC(-related) sites, like Parkhai or Namazga, around the Eneolithic to early Bronze Age (i.e. ~2500 B.C.).

Ergo, the dissemination of grey wares through to the Subcontinent and Iranian plateau during the Iron Age can be treated as a material marker for the movement of IA IIr's.

Could these be an artifact of trade? I'm no archaeologist, but I haven't (yet?) seen any mention of grey wares existing in Iran or around the IVC prior to around 1800 B.C. (which is the approximate date where grey wares begin appearing in both locations, and coincides with the collapse of the BMAC).

The pottery type of the IVC was (again, as far as I've read) mostly black with red bands. Said pottery was also found further west in places like the Kulli culture (Balochistan).*

* I'd taken this as a material indicator of the IVCp expansion further west.

Thanks for the clarification. This sounds logical was confused because i read on wikipedia (i was just looking for a quick overview) that the pottery of PGW was entirely local and not similar to pottery in Iran/Central Asia what contradicted what i read once about Grey wares in Iran and Central Asia. I feel like there is the tendency among some Indian archaelogists to downplay any kind of non-local influences.

**pegasus** · 01-14-2021, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Coldmountains

Thanks for the clarification. This sounds logical was confused because i read on wikipedia (i was just looking for a quick overview) that the pottery of PGW was entirely local and not similar to pottery in Iran/Central Asia what contradicted what i read once about Grey wares in Iran and Central Asia. I feel like there is the tendency among many Indian archaelogists to downplay any kind of non-local influences.

DMXX answered it best. The smooth Grey Ware pottery seems to be a hallmark of Indo Aryans eventhough its a pottery style Indo Iranians generally adopted from the BMAC . Interestingly, Grey Ware style pottery does appear for the first time Northern Syria, between 1550- 1350 BCE, after that falls it out of favor , probably because of a combination of Hittites and Assyrians who take over. Yes they do, come to think of it there is a disconnect between the sort of red/black Cemetery H pottery and the Grey Ware with the geometric designs.

1550/1400-
1350
Middle Jazirah
1A Early Mittani pottery

Grey Burnished Ware
The other very distinctive ware of the Middle Jazirah I A
period, beside the Dark on Buff Anima l Ornamented Ware,
is the Grey Burnished Ware (nos. 4 3 to 51). The grey clay is
tempered with fine white grits and some chaff. Burnishing
is applied to the outside of the vessels.
This ware is a good chronological indicator, because it
is dominant in Middle Jazirah I A and very rare in Middle
Jazirah IB" 7

Sample:	AGUsers ► DMXX
Fit:	3.445
Results:	Hajji Firuz C • Average	60
	Sintashta MLBA • Average	16.5
	Caucasus lowlands LC • Average	15.5
	Baikal N • Average	8

Sample:	AGUsers ► DMXX
Fit:	2.7204
Results:	Hajji Firuz C • Average	38.5
	Caucasus lowlands LC • Average	22
	Gonur1 BA • Average	18
	Sintashta MLBA • Average	15
	Baikal N • Average	6.5

Sample:	AGUsers ► DMXX
Fit:	2.7516
Results:	Hajji Firuz C • Average	42
	Caucasus lowlands LC • Average	21
	Alalakh MLBA o • ALA019	18.5
	Sintashta MLBA • Average	12.5
	Baikal N • Average	6

Sample:	Iranian Lor ► Average
Fit:	2.8029
Results:	Hajji Firuz C • Average	84
	Sintashta MLBA • Average	10.5
	Baikal N • Average	5
	Caucasus lowlands LC • Average	0.5

Sample:	Iranian Lor ► Average
Fit:	1.6093
Results:	Hajji Firuz C • Average	61.5
	Gonur1 BA • Average	18.5
	Sintashta MLBA • Average	9.5
	Caucasus lowlands LC • Average	7
	Baikal N • Average	3.5

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Sample:	Balochi ► Average
Fit:	3.0891
Results:	Shahr I Sokhta BA1 • Average	53.5
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	Sarazm En • Average	43.5
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Sample:	Loebanr IA ► Average
Fit:	1.3246
Results:	Shahr I Sokhta BA1 • Average	45
	Shahr I Sokhta BA3 • Average	35.5
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	Chokhopani 2700BP • Average	4