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Thread: Steppe Not Required to explain IE in India

  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomasso29 View Post
    I have always had a problem with mixing DNA with languages. So for clarity's sake, let me compare the Semitic languages for a split second. Semitic languages come from the Afro-Asiatic family, which most scholars think it originated somewhere in North-East Africa. At some point this made its way to West Asia where the Semitic languages likely developed and spread. Some haplogroup variations out of Africa can be tied to this migration (Most likely variations of haplogroup E). But by the time the Semitic languages developed, it's very likely that different populations played a role.

    I tend to view Indo-Iranians the same, perhaps their forefathers were steppe nomads at some point, but as they made their way down across to South-Central Asia and mixed with other populations. By the time Iranians and Indo-Aryans come into the picture, the populations were probably nothing like those on the steppes, with the exception of the Scythians which were a back migration of some Iranian tribes from South-Central Asia.

    Scythians a back migration of Iranians from south-central asia? Which source did you get this piece of wisdom from because you might have been reading fiction.
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  3. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomasso29 View Post
    I have always had a problem with mixing DNA with languages. So for clarity's sake, let me compare the Semitic languages for a split second. Semitic languages come from the Afro-Asiatic family, which most scholars think it originated somewhere in North-East Africa. At some point this made its way to West Asia where the Semitic languages likely developed and spread. Some haplogroup variations out of Africa can be tied to this migration (Most likely variations of haplogroup E). But by the time the Semitic languages developed, it's very likely that different populations played a role.

    I tend to view Indo-Iranians the same, perhaps their forefathers were steppe nomads at some point, but as they made their way down across to South-Central Asia and mixed with other populations. By the time Iranians and Indo-Aryans come into the picture, the populations were probably nothing like those on the steppes, with the exception of the Scythians which were a back migration of some Iranian tribes from South-Central Asia.
    well i don't think this comparison fits. Afro-Asiatic is something like 15.000 years old and Proto-Semitic seems to be as old as PIE (3500-4500 B.C please correct me if wrong). Indo-Iranian on the other side formed just around 2000-2200 B.C with most of the Indo-Iranian expansion in South Eurasia happening around 1500-1800 B.C and in many regions much later. So we can in ancient and modern dna detect very strong uniparental and even autosomal signals with some populations in the Pamir regions having above 40% Steppe_MLBA ancestry even today. Also in the case of Indo-Aryans when they arrived in South Asia they were still pastoralists (the rig veda is full of demonization of urban/sendatary populations) and had a pretty clear steppe cultural package (horse rituals, chariots, snake-slayer god, cattle-based economy, even PIE Dyḗus is still remembered as Dyaus Pitar). So i honestly would not be surprised if we find ancient DNA from South Asia dated to the very early Vedic age or slightly before it with 80% steppe DNA

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  5. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well i don't think this comparison fits. Afro-Asiatic is something like 15.000 years old and Proto-Semitic seems to be as old as PIE (3500-4500 B.C please correct me if wrong). Indo-Iranian on the other side formed just around 2000-2200 B.C with most of the Indo-Iranian expansion in South Eurasia happening around 1500-1800 B.C and in many regions much later. So we can in ancient and modern dna detect very strong uniparental and even autosomal signals with some populations in the Pamir regions having above 40% Steppe_MLBA ancestry even today. Also in the case of Indo-Aryans when they arrived in South Asia they were still pastoralists (the rig veda is full of demonization of urban/sendatary populations) and had a pretty clear steppe cultural package (horse rituals, chariots, snake-slayer god, cattle-based economy, even PIE Dyḗus is still remembered as Dyaus Pitar). So i honestly would not be surprised if we find ancient DNA from South Asia dated to the very early Vedic age or slightly before it with 80% steppe DNA
    Considering the population size differences, isn't it more likely that they were significantly diluted in Central Asia? Don't we have some evidence of this? I could be mistaken, but I always assumed when they entered India or Iran they had something like 50% Steppe_MLBA and then it quickly dissipated to roughly modern-day percentages - perhaps within as little as 1-2 generations (again due to size population size differences, especially in Iran and the IVC area, though perhaps this won't hold for Indian HG areas east of the IVC).

    Perhaps Iranians > Iran and Aryans > South Asia isn't the same thing, but there have been many surprises so far in the aDNA record when it comes to the genetic influence of Steppe peoples on the cultures they supposedly founded. Why so little Steppe in Anatolians? I think it's less than 10%, even in elite tombs. In Greeks and Caucuses populations it doesn't look like it exceeded 20%, same with early Iranians so far. We also see minimal amounts in the Mitanni (again so far).

    I'm not sure if it's the same with India, but I think there have been a lot of Central Asian aDNA finds and they show significant dilution, so not too sure why it wouldn't be the case that the same happened there.
    Last edited by kimby32; 03-22-2023 at 10:39 PM.

  6. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimby32 View Post
    Considering the population size differences, isn't it more likely that they were significantly diluted in Central Asia? Don't we have some evidence of this? I could be mistaken, but I always assumed when they entered India or Iran they had something like 50% Steppe_MLBA and then it quickly dissipated to roughly modern-day percentages - perhaps within as little as 1-2 generations (again due to size population size differences, especially in Iran and the IVC area, though perhaps this won't hold for Indian HG areas east of the IVC).

    Perhaps Iranians > Iran and Aryans > South Asia isn't the same thing, but there have been many surprises so far in the aDNA record when it comes to the genetic influence of steppe peoples on the cultures they supposedly founded. Why so little Steppe in Anatolians? I think it's less than 10%, even in elite tombs. In Greeks and Caucuses populations it doesn't look like it reached >20%, same with early Iranians so far. We also see minimal amounts in the Mitanni, again so far.

    I'm not sure if it's the same with India, but I think some Central Asian steppe DNA has shown a dilution, so not too sure why it wouldn't be the case that the same happened there.
    well, so far we don't have direct DNA evidence for Indo-Aryans mixing much with sedentary Central Asians before they arrived in South Asia. Sure there was technological transfer and so on but neither (Post)-BMAC sites around 1800-2000 B.C show steppe mlba admix/R1a nor most South Asians need BMAC as a direct source of ancestry (rather something from Central Asian pastoralists population in the IAMC/Hindukush region before Indo-Europeans but these admix would definitely not be higher than Steppe MLBA). On the other side, we have found samples from Uzbekistan dated around 1500 B.C. with R1a-Z93 and basically 80-100% Steppe MLBA admix. In my eyes, this means that you had a lot of basically full Steppe MLBA people in 1500-1800 in Central Asia and probably further south in places like Afghanistan.

    Also the rig veda shows a political worldview pretty hostile to these Pre-Indo-European Central Asians. Indra was many times praised as the destroyer of "Dasa" forts in the mountains (so unlikely Post-IVC groups). Iranics in South Eurasia are probably another story because they arrived almost 1000 years later than Indo-Aryans in South Eurasia and had much more time to mix with sedentary Post-BMAC groups but still we can not assume that early Iranics arriving in Iran were mainly BMAC or so. Rather something like TKM_IA (50% BMAC-related, 50% Steppe) would make the most sense

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  8. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well, so far we don't have direct DNA evidence for Indo-Aryans mixing much with sedentary Central Asians before they arrived in South Asia. Sure there was technological transfer and so on but neither (Post)-BMAC sites around 1800-2000 B.C show steppe mlba admix/R1a nor most South Asians need BMAC as a direct source of ancestry (rather something from Central Asian pastoralists population in the IAMC/Hindukush region before Indo-Europeans but these admix would definitely not be higher than Steppe MLBA). On the other side, we have found samples from Uzbekistan dated around 1500 B.C. with R1a-Z93 and basically 80-100% Steppe MLBA admix. In my eyes, this means that you had a lot of basically full Steppe MLBA people in 1500-1800 in Central Asia and probably further south in places like Afghanistan.

    Also the rig veda shows a political worldview pretty hostile to these Pre-Indo-European Central Asians. Indra was many times praised as the destroyer of "Dasa" forts in the mountains (so unlikely Post-IVC groups). Iranics in South Eurasia are probably another story because they arrived almost 1000 years later than Indo-Aryans in South Eurasia and had much more time to mix with sedentary Post-BMAC groups but still we can not assume that early Iranics arriving in Iran were mainly BMAC or so. Rather something like TKM_IA (50% BMAC-related, 50% Steppe) would make the most sense
    Iranians had arrived almost 1000 years later so how can they still have BMAC-related admixture? Where did it come from? If Indo-Aryans obliterated Central Asians with BMAC-related DNA then shouldn't Central Asia be populated by Indo-Aryans when the Iranians come through later on?

  9. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    well, so far we don't have direct DNA evidence for Indo-Aryans mixing much with sedentary Central Asians before they arrived in South Asia. Sure there was technological transfer and so on but neither (Post)-BMAC sites around 1800-2000 B.C show steppe mlba admix/R1a nor most South Asians need BMAC as a direct source of ancestry (rather something from Central Asian pastoralists population in the IAMC/Hindukush region before Indo-Europeans but these admix would definitely not be higher than Steppe MLBA). On the other side, we have found samples from Uzbekistan dated around 1500 B.C. with R1a-Z93 and basically 80-100% Steppe MLBA admix. In my eyes, this means that you had a lot of basically full Steppe MLBA people in 1500-1800 in Central Asia and probably further south in places like Afghanistan.

    Also the rig veda shows a political worldview pretty hostile to these Pre-Indo-European Central Asians. Indra was many times praised as the destroyer of "Dasa" forts in the mountains (so unlikely Post-IVC groups). Iranics in South Eurasia are probably another story because they arrived almost 1000 years later than Indo-Aryans in South Eurasia and had much more time to mix with sedentary Post-BMAC groups but still we can not assume that early Iranics arriving in Iran were mainly BMAC or so. Rather something like TKM_IA (50% BMAC-related, 50% Steppe) would make the most sense
    It is likely populations south of the Amu had significant IVCp related ancestry already and given the importance of the Soma cult it would point to some admixing with people in the Afghan Highlands. If you look at Loebanr_o , ABST it reveals that pattern. When you subtract out the EA portion in Steppe rich Pamiris you get a similar pattern as well, whether they got it recently or not , point is populations like that must have existed. The Rig Ved can be interpreted in different ways, the same Dasyu in the forts are described as "snub nosed" but that is a literal interpretation, we know people in these towns were not snub nosed but rather its mean to show one who has no character or materialistic. Generally those in indulging in vyapar were seen as conniving and in a negative manner, the same can be observed with Panis. Parsing between literal and philosophical Vedic Sanskrit interpretations is complicated. Fort in a Vedic philosophical sense is be viewed as a bastion of corruption which has to be destroyed by a deity or one in which a deity or divinity resides and can never be destroyed. If you look at specific suktams of Agni it elucidates that as well. Interestingly in the Upanishads much of the characteristics and epithets associated with Agni and Indra get transferred to the Goddess Durga, her name is derived from one Sanskrit word for Fortress.

    sample:: Random_VedicAr
    distance: 1.5965
    Srubnaya_MLBA: 46.5
    Aigyrzhal_BA: 20
    Dzharkutan1_BA: 17
    CG_IVCp: 16.5

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  11. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimby32 View Post
    Iranians had arrived almost 1000 years later so how can they still have BMAC-related admixture? Where did it come from? If Indo-Aryans obliterated Central Asians with BMAC-related DNA then shouldn't Central Asia be populated by Indo-Aryans when the Iranians come through later on?
    Indo-Aryans populated Central Asia, Iran and Afghanistan (you still find lot of clearly Indo-Aryan R1a clades in Afghanistan and South Central Asia) before Iranics but we can not assume that they made the majority in most of these regions. Pre-IEs likely made the majority in most of the region even when Iranics arrived. So if we would test some random place in Khorasan/East Iran or Afghanistan in 1200-1800 B.C many sites would lack any steppe with some others likely having samples with above 50% if not much more (especially the ones closer dated to around 1800 B.C)

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  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    It is likely populations south of the Amu had significant IVCp related ancestry already and given the importance of the Soma cult it would point to some admixing with people in the Afghan Highlands. If you look at Loebanr_o , ABST it reveals that pattern. When you subtract out the EA portion in Steppe rich Pamiris you get a similar pattern as well, whether they got it recently or not , point is populations like that must have existed. The Rig Ved can be interpreted in different ways, the same Dasyu in the forts are described as "snub nosed" but that is a literal interpretation, we know people in these towns were not snub nosed but rather its mean to show one who has no character or materialistic. Generally those in indulging in vyapar were seen as conniving and in a negative manner, the same can be observed with Panis. Parsing between literal and philosophical Vedic Sanskrit interpretations is complicated. Fort in a Vedic philosophical sense is be viewed as a bastion of corruption which has to be destroyed by a deity or one in which a deity or divinity resides and can never be destroyed. If you look at specific suktams of Agni it elucidates that as well. Interestingly in the Upanishads much of the characteristics and epithets associated with Agni and Indra get transferred to the Goddess Durga, her name is derived from one Sanskrit word for Fortress.

    sample:: Random_VedicAr
    distance: 1.5965
    Srubnaya_MLBA: 46.5
    Aigyrzhal_BA: 20
    Dzharkutan1_BA: 17
    CG_IVCp: 16.5
    In addition to what u already posted about Bustan VI phase of Bactria, there is also similar evidence of interaction with Andronovo and IAMC cultures in Tajikistan which u probably already read but sharing for wider audience:
    During the Late Bronze Age the northeastern region of the steppe cultures becomes the main source of metal for North Bactria. The shapes of the metal objects from the settlements and cemeteries of south Tajikistan have a wide range of parallels from both farming and steppe sites (Vinogradova 1991: 77; 1994: 40; 1996b: 183). For this period close contacts between the farming population and the steppe nomadic people of the Beshkent-Vakhsh and Andronovo tribes have been observed (Vinogradova 2000: 89). The Andronovo people played a vital role as mediators in the process of diffusion of the ancient eastern farming culture to the north. On the other hand, the correlation between Andronovo pot- tery and metal in farming sites is well established. It is possible that steppe tribes may have settled in farming oases and could have embraced some ritual and cultural traditions of the farming population.
    The infiltration process of the Andronovo tribes must have been relatively slow and peaceful as there are no traces of destruction of farming settlements. It is possible that the steppe tribes settled and ‘dissolved’ into the population of farming oases. The Andronovo population first appears in the Sapalli culture during the Kuzali stage and becomes much more apparent in the succeeding Molali and Bustan stages (Askarov 1989: 158; Avanessova 1996: 141; Vinogradova 1993: 289)

    Interestingly there are human skeletal remains from these settlements in TJK some characterized by archeologists as Caucasoid. I wonder if there is any project underway to get these LBA individuals sequenced for aDNA?
    https://www.academia.edu/36056805/32...th_Tajikistan_

    Interestingly, this TJK site primarily shows inhumation with some fractional burials, along with pottery that shows similar motifs found in Swat.
    Partial and full cremation, inhumation along with burial chamber similar to cist burials at Bustan VI reminded me of SPGT burials as well. Iirc Zahir mentioned that there are similar sites across the border in Afghanistan.
    "Eight semi-ground mud chambers dug in subsoil (we discovered 2-3 rows of brickwork level with the ancient surface), which we interpreted as structures for the cremation of dead bodies (fig. 4), are also very interesting. They vary considerably in size, form (rectangular, square and trapezoidal) and the elements they are composed of and are oriented towards the points of the compass (with slight deviations). The largest part of each of the constructions of this type was built above the ground, with only a small portion going beneath it. The brickwork (made with the use of mortar) is similar to that of a cist."
    So its very clear to me that Loebanr-o or outliers at Udegram and the whole Barikot sequence does represent populations arriving via IMAC and Bactria after a period of acculturation in the region. The whole Dardic cultural horizon with some beliefs having no clear parallels in the vedas and the presence of retroflex in distant northern reaches of Pakistan that can only be explained via interaction with a proto-Burushaski only confirm this. Of course, given the number of individuals Moorjani stated they were not able to sequence from Chitral and a number of other sites all over North West Pakistan, there is a possibility that more individuals similar to Loebanr-IAo will turn up because all Chitrali and GB dardic speaking populations require it.
    Sample Fit Swat Indo-Aryan (Ghost) Kapisa CG IVCp Gonur1 BA Chokhopani 2700BP DinkhaTepe BIA A
    Average (Loebanr IA o) 2.28 80 15 5 0 0
    Chitral Dameli 02-HW-sim (Kapisa) 1.97 62 32 4 2 0
    Average (Kho Singanali) 2.37 59 31 1 6 3
    Average (Kalash) 1.83 56 35 8 1 0
    Udegram-IA-HW-sim (Kapisa) 2.28 55 41 0 4 0
    Chitral Phalula 01-HW-sim (Kapisa) 2.26 54 42 0 3 1
    Chitral NURISTANI 02-HW-sim (Kapisa) 1.70 51 35 10 2 2
    Chitral Dameli 01-HW-sim (Kapisa) 1.68 50 36 11 1 2
    Chitral NURISTANI 01-HW-sim (Kapisa) 1.99 49 30 20 1 0
    Average (Barikot IA) 1.97 40 45 10 2 3
    Chitral Gawar 01-HW-sim (Kapisa) 2.60 38 52 0 4 6
    Average (Kashmiri Pakistan) 2.49 33 60 0 6 1
    Chitral Gawar 02-HW-sim (Kapisa) 2.20 28 67 0 2 3


    using Bustan o1 also works.
    Sample Fit Swat Indo-Aryan (ghost) Kapisa Bustan BA o1 IVCp Kaazi Chokhopani 2700BP
    Average (Loebanr IA o) 2.20 72 18 10 0
    Udegram-HW-sim (Kapisa) 1.47 61 7 31 1
    Chitral Dameli 02-HW-sim (Kapisa) 1.97 51 29 19 1
    Average (Barikot IA) 2.13 26 49 24 1

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  15. #209
    So many South Asian faliures and losers here.

    Brighu is here to enlighten fools again. Know that the Brighu lineage is non-exceeded in fame and prestige in the IE world.

    The Vedic ppl know it that Brighu brought Agni from the Cave, that was given by Matarisvan.
    To the Iranians, the Brighu lineage gave them the Kavi dynasty, from whence came all of Classical Iranian identity.

    Let it be known both the AtharvaVeda and the Athravans of Zorastrianism are derived from the Brighu lineage.

    "From the flame came Brighu, from the coals Angirasa'

    Angiras, the Vedic Nomadic clan shares its name with the Anglos. All steppe DNA in their composition. Steppe DNA is greatest amongst Rors and similar Vedic-descended peoples.

    Let it be knwn these are the most esteemed of South Central Asian tribes: Baruchis, Jatts, and (South) Pashtuns.

    From the Jatts and Pashtuns, numerous groups many migrated North and West hence we see the high amount of affinity of Jatts and Pashtuns with Steppe DNA. But Baruchis. Jatts and Pashtuns are not really he mainstream Indo Aryans of the Rigvedic Angiras groups.

    "Together Came the Pakthas, Brighus.." in the Battle of the Ten Kings the Pakhtas and Bhirgus along with other Western tribes allied against the Steppe-like Nomadic Sudasa clan.

    Now it is known the Brighus and the Baruchis are one and the same. There is no room here Steppe-DNA influence or excellence. The esteemed position of Brighus with South Asian can never be upended by those failures such as COldmountains or CopperAxe, fools in their folly are vain in their efforts for prestige.

    For all tribes of South Asia can be in their correct place, having their position and contiribution duly acknowledged. It must start at the top and work its way down. First, the Baruchis of the Brighu lineage are put in their correct position, then follow in order, the Jatts, Pakhtas, and then other Indo Aryan tribes.

    Now know it the Brighu line will never give up its well-earned position of pre-eminence amongst IE ppls. Never forget who brought the fire from the Cave. Now, also know, the Bharuchis are very low-steppe and high IVC.

    For it has historically been known the Brigu lineage is famed for knowledge and anger. When the tribes sit at the table to talk of the nature of the world, the Brighus speak first. This Brighu here speaks amongst you, having the ancient Brighu pre-eminence in knowledge and passion, now applied to aDNA, that there be clarity on this subject, the aDNA data DOES NOT SHOW Steppe DNA migrating into South Asia.

    For it was Brighu who brought to IEs Agni from the cave, now this one today tells you the truth of the nature of these things.
    Last edited by kurgan_fantasy; 03-23-2023 at 10:04 AM.

  16. #210
    Let not there be confusion and darkness where speaks this Brighu. Know that Angirases are related to Steppe peoples but not Brighus.

    The esteem of Brighus amonsts the Indo Iranians already laid out before you, found from within their own literature, see now the Brighu esteem travelled far out into Europe with the Neolithic, not the Steppe nomads related to the Angirases and Aryans.

    There is no certain derivation for the name and tribal origin of the Bryges. In 1844, Hermann MŘller suggested the name might be related to the same Indo-European root as that of Slavic Breg (shore, hill, slope, mountain), German Berg (mountain)[11] i.e. IE *bʰerǵʰ. It would then be cognate with Western European tribal names such as the Celtic Brigantes and the Germanic Burgundians,[12] and semantically motivated by some aspect of the word meanings "high, elevated, noble, illustrious".[13]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges

    The name Brigantes (Βρίγαντες in Ancient Greek) shares the same Proto-Celtic root as the goddess Brigantia, *brigant- meaning "high, elevated", and it is unclear whether settlements called Brigantium were so named as "high ones" in a metaphorical sense of nobility, or literally as "highlanders", referring to the Pennines, or inhabitants of physically elevated fortifications. (IEW, s.v. "bhereg'h-"). The word is related to German Burgund and Iranian Alborz (OIr. Hara Berezaiti).

    In modern Welsh the word braint means 'privilege, prestige' and comes from the same root *brigantī. Other related forms from the modern Celtic languages are: Welsh brenin 'king' (< *brigantīnos); Welsh/Cornish/Breton bri 'prestige, reputation, honour, dignity', Scottish Gaelic brýgh 'pith, power', Irish brÝ 'energy, significance', Manx bree 'power, energy' (all < *brīg-/brigi-); and Welsh/Cornish/Breton bre 'hill' (< *brigā). The name Bridget from Old Irish Brigit (Modern Irish BrÝd) also comes from Brigantī, as does the English river name Brent and the connected area Brentford.

    There are several ancient settlements named Brigantium around Europe, such as Berganza in ┴lava (Spain), A Coru˝a and Berganti˝os in Galicia (Spain), Braganša and Braga in Portugal and Brianšon,[3][4] Brigetio on the border of Slovakia and Hungary,[5] Brigobanne situated on the Breg river and near the Brigach river in south Germany (pre-Roman Vindelicia[6])[7] and Bregenz in the Alps. From the same origin also stems the name of the Italian sub-region of Brianza.
    Also did the Brighu town Bharuch give name to Baloch further West. Going further West into Europe the name continues in Balkans and then into Neolithic Europe.

    Everything is known. The Baruchi DNA sample exists in G25. It is there for everyone to check out. The Brighus are the highest esteemed group amongst Indo Iranians and IEs. Who brought Agni from the Cave, and gave them the Kavi, poets par-excellence, the Kings of Iran, Atharvans, Farmers, Astronomers. There is no Steppe DNA in Brighus, that is for the Angirases, the common peoples, the Aryans. Now see it the Brighus of the highest esteem amongst IEs, are furthest from Steppe DNA, but associated with Farming in South Asia and outside of South Asia.

    For you that sit with Nomads who wish to elevate yourselfs above all limits, know that you must pass through Bharuch of the Brighus and Kavis, Farmers, Poets and Astronomers. Only one group stands in your path but that is none other than the Brighus and Baruch will never be taken, nor the pre-eminence of Brighus lost. For what was is, and that which wasnt can never be. New tools tell old stories, qpAdm, G25, PCA, all forms of knowledge and skills, like Astronomy, can be mastered by the Brighus and all tell the same story for he who is skilled and uses them truly.

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