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Thread: L47* (Z159+, DYS438=11) - The "Ivanhoe Cluster"

  1. #1
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    L47* (Z159+, DYS438=11) - The "Ivanhoe Cluster"

    This seems like a great place to organize discussions regarding the work Dr. Mikhail Rogov has done on an interesting cluster of DNA matches with a small non-Jewish group from the British Isles and a larger Jewish group located in Eastern Europe.

    Interesting links:

    http://mykindred.com/L47x/
    http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/gro...1/message/5865
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R...1/message/6325

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     Agamemnon (04-21-2014)

  3. #2
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    I am L47*, Z159, but DYS438=12 and my ▒1700 ancestor (L÷wenstein) lived in Darmstadt, Hesse, Germany and he was Evangelisch Lutheran. He moved to The Netherlands and became the founder of the L÷wensteyn (L÷wensteijn) family in that country. Where do I fit in in relation to this Ivanhoe cluster?

  4. #3
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    I am awaiting the results on my 111 marker test which will tell how close we are genetically, but as of now we split from each other a long time ago (you show up on my 12 marker matches with a distance of 1).

    I am expecting, as more and more are tested, that we will find a large split around the 5th century. My theory is that 2,000-2,500 years ago we were all very closely related or even had the same ancestor during this period. Over time a group branched off and hit England either as laeti members of a Roman legion, such as XX which settled Deva (modern Chester) or as part of the Anglo-Saxon invasion (most likely Angles that founded the Mercia or Hwicce kingdoms). This would include my ancestors as well as members of what are now Cloud, Cheshire, Blood, Burns, Rattray and a few other surnames. A much larger group stayed in N. Germany for a long period, which I would include the Lowensteyn, Rubinsohn and Scott (Schacht) families. A third group, probably the largest group, ended up in Eastern Europe and are predominately Jewish. How this all happened is the beautiful mystery many people are working to solve. Some of the E. Europeans have a history as Sephardic Jews and lived for a period of time in Spain. I know that along the Rhine River there was a strong Jewish community (Askenazi Jews) that at some point was displaced. Most were pushed East while others ended up in Spain and other areas. There are several histories of countries exiling their Jewish communities, such as England in the 13th century and Spain in 1492. I believe Clovis may have exiled Jews in his kingdom much earlier. I think the English group came over as pagans and were converted into Christians (as history suggests) while the EE group went pagan->Judaism. Your group may have also gone pagan->Christian and ended up Luthern while my Grants went Puritan and the Clouds went Quaker.

    There are many many different options on how we are got to where we are today. I'm hoping this discussion will help us all narrow down that list into something concrete.

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     Agamemnon (04-21-2014)

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    The time period for the mass exodus of Jews from N. Germany seems to be between 1096-1349. Closer to 1349 the majority went East to Poland and then probably into Lithuania, Russia & Belarus from there.

    As for how a few families ended up in Spain, I am hoping the DNA shows a very early spit from the main group so that I can use the Vandals or Visigoths as an excuse, but it would have to be accepted that these members converted to Judaism at some point (neither the Vandals or Visigoths have any Jewish history and in fact persecuted Jews while in Spain). While none of our matches have Spanish origins, one (or more?) family claims to have gone from Spain to Eastern Europe (and I have no reason to doubt them). For now I am calling it the "Spanish Problem" as I can't seem to find an easy answer for it.

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     Agamemnon (04-21-2014)

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    By the way, you aren't the only DYS438=12 member of Z159, and perhaps this will help with the differentiation of the groups.

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     Agamemnon (04-21-2014)

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    I've done more research on L159+ which I will post here in the coming days. From there, the Big Y will sort things out. The short of it is there are 3 apparent groups:

    DYS 438=11, 717=20 & 462=10 - which is the Eastern European and majority Jewish "Ivanhoe" Group (as named and originally discovered by Mikhail Rogov).

    DYS 438=11, 717=19 & 462=11 - which is appears to be either Anglo-Saxon or Danish Viking, (there's also an argument for Swedish Viking) and now labeled as the "Z159+ Beowulf" Group.

    DYS 438=12, 717=19, 462=11, YCAlla=21 & 413=21 - mainly British Isles with some far west continent and labeled as the "Z159+ Norman" Group. This group is very closely related to Z160+ kits with the same DYS signatures which I call the "Z160+ Norman" Group.

    And finally there are two CTS3553+ kits that are originated in S. Italy via the Norman-originated de Hauteville Family.

    I believe all of the above can be traced back to a handful of families situated on the northern end of the Jutland Peninsula. The "Ivanhoes" probably travelled east to Lithuania & Poland and then down the Russian River system into Belarus & the Ukraine, some of which becoming Jewish later. The "Beowulfs" went west into England as either Anglo-Saxon invaders (most likely Jutes) or as part of the Danish Vikings. The other groups were likely Norman that moved around a little later then the first two, ending up mostly in England with a few staying in the far west of Europe. Of course the de Hautevilles went to Sicily and Southern Italy.

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    I haven't heard of any Jewish connection to R-L47 except online. I would imagine most y-DNA surnames with the U106 > L47 marker would be English or continental Dutch/German. My 23andMe.com results show my y-DNA as R1b1b2a1a1d1*, which apparently is the same (though I have yet to test with them) as Family Tree DNA's R1b1a2a1a1a4. So I have SNP U106/L47. My earliest known paternal ancestor was Francis Colegrove, Sr., c. 1663-c. 1759. He came from London, England to Rhode Island colony in the 1680's. Beyond him I have no records. The Colegrove surname, however, is found in the 1560's and into the 17th century, predominately in Oxfordshire, with the earlier references listed as Swalcliffe and Kiddington in the 16th century. I have no specific connection to Oxfordshire yet, but hopefully another Colegrove from the UK, another branch, will test as well. It is thought the name may have originated with a grove along the little River Thames, near Coleshill, Oxfordshire, but this is 19th century speculation. I've heard that others from England such as the Cloud family share our DNA siginiture, so perhaps we share a common English ancestor in the early Middle Ages?? Do you have any information on R-L47? Thanks. - Chris.

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    I don't have much info on R-L47 other than it seems to originate in N. Germany or Denmark and it's quite old. There are several noble families of Germany that carried this SNP and it was probably very common among Vikings and the Normans. I would guess it first made it's way into England as part of the Anglo-Saxon Invasion and then a large wave of it appeared with the Viking Invasions that occurred later.

    At this point I think the Jewish connection is more or less a non-story. There is a large number of Z159+ Jewish kits but it's skewed because there was a large push to find potential Z159 families and test them several years ago. My thoughts now are that these Jewish Z159+ kits all descend from one person who lived 1000+ years ago and was likely converted to Judaism via the Khazars in Eastern Europe or was part of a Jewish family that suffered an NPE during a Viking raid. The Jewish kits are all located in or near the Belarus region.

    My own family can be traced to SW England as far back as 1601 and was likely always located in this region or moved there early on from the London area. There is an English le Graunt family that can be found near London in the early 1200's, and a Gaunt family can be found at the same time near the Welsh borders in SW England. My current guess is that my Grants connect to a Le Grand family that came over as part of the Norman Invasion, probably as servants or squires to one of the Nobles. We have no history of or connection with Scotland, and neither does any of our closest non-Grant matches (although they are all fairly distant genetically), so any previous membership or affiliation with the Scottish Clan Grant has been rejected.

    Chances are the shared ancestor pre-dates the English Middle Ages and occurred either in Normandy or Denmark before.

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  16. #9
    It's surprising how few people are willing to credit a British source for various SNPs. There 's no doubt Britain was a major point of dispersal of a lot of Bronze Age lines.

    What I see is a large British/North Sea group and a smaller much more recent East-Central European Jewish group. However there is a heavy British bias in sampling.

    We have Mike Rogov's charming story of a Sephardic Jewish merchant In Iberia 12th century bought himself a Dutch slave who had a way with the ladies. The merchant went on regular trading trips up into Eastern Europe and the lad left a trail of little Ivanhoes behind him.

    Mike's map certainly looks like that but it seems to have disappeared

    Amazingly enough the DNA gives it some support. If you go down the line L47>Z159 >S3249>Y5461>FGC8590>FGC8579>FGC8578>FGC8573>FGC85 87; then as far as FGC8579 the side branches are pretty much all British and Dutch; at that point we have a Portuguese, and then it’s all East-Central Europe and Russia.

    A diaspora of Dutch anabaptists is another story.

    Anyway hopefully the new L47 pack will reveal a whole lot more.

    JF

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeflood View Post
    It's surprising how few people are willing to credit a British source for various SNPs.

    [...]

    Anyway hopefully the new L47 pack will reveal a whole lot more.
    A recent topic on 23andMe forums may have interesting results. The original post was a fairly typical (for 23andMe) "I'm R1b1b2a1a1d from England, where are you from?" type. The OP was from Bristol. I'm from Somerset. Message after message came from people with paternal ancestry from South West England, with a few exceptions. It's raised enough interest to get at least a couple of people from 23andMe to decide to take FTDNA tests to see if we have any sort of link beyond L48.

    I'm currently waiting for my result for the L47 SNP, recommended by project admins based on my Y-111. I'm almost certain that I'm L47+ because an "anonymous" (but known, with 95% certainty) cousin was found to be L47+ on the v3 chip.

    As soon as I get confirmation I'll order the L47 pack.

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     Jean M (12-08-2015)

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