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Thread: The first horse herders and the impact of early Bronze Age steppe expansions into Asi

  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    ms85,

    Posts at 11:37 - 'I am out of the topic, cya'll later!'
    Continues posting...

    More on topic...

    If you are talking about the CA Barcin sample, I1584? I think, then as far as qpadm goes, no EHG of any sort is necessary.
    The best model I've found is Mentese_N (right next to Barcin), a heap of CHG (25-30%) and some Levant_N.

    Despite being incredibly consistent though, qpadm and f3 outgroup nmonte do actually differ on I1584.
    The latter does actually want to give I1584 a good 5-6% EHG. I don't recall either Alexandria or Dereivka CA specifically being present at any time, but I can check again.
    Very interesting Kale. So mostly an 'Anatolian'(?...actually not familiar with Mentese_N's genetic structure...is it rather ENF?) + Neolithic Levant + CHG genetic structure.

    Also interesting the differences. Is either run more reliable than the other?

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  3. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    We are talking 4000 to 5000 years ago. If you really think people can get desperate on a position they take on an archaeological enigma from several millennia ago, than that tells more about you than about anyone else.
    You would be naive to think that people cannot get desperate over something that happened long ago.

    People get desperate when their future or the future of their country/people gets threatened from outside.
    And we do agree that politics can affect how the outcome of that future turns out, right?
    And we do agree that peoples perception of the past can alter the outcome of politics, right?

    Actually i don't expect you to agree on my last question, because you seem way too naive to have read any relevant text on anthropological or archaeological theory.

    Here is a book which can maybe relieve you from your own infantile naivity and ignorance:

    Johnson, Matthew (2010). Archaeological Theory: An Introduction (second edition). Oxford: Blackwell.

    Its very basic, although i don't expect you to read it.
    A key point which Johnson makes, and which he is very known for, is that ALL ARCHAEOLOGY IS POLITICAL.
    And this point is also valid for anthropology and history.

    And yes, people tend to get very desperate when it comes to how the politics which affect their lives is going to turn out. And yes, history affects those politics.

    I can assure you that the jews of Europe were desperate when the nazis altered history and demonized the history of the jews.
    I can assure you that the polaks were desperate when german anthropologists degraded them(and other slavs) to untermenschen in german litterature.
    I can assure you that albanians were desperate when serb historians tried to place the origin of albanians to medieval anatolia and caucasus.

    Now for my main point;
    Do you see me tweak David Reichs results to fit my agenda, using amateurish calculators?
    Do you see me demanding C14 dating of any samples, of any time period or any culture?
    Do you see me demanding 100+ hittite samples, even though we never get 100+ samples from any culture?
    Do you see me saying that David Reich is going to loose credibility because of his conclusions?
    Do you see me trying to model a Hajji Firuz (6000BC) sample as partly yamnaya(3000BC)?
    Do you see me saying that the R1b-Z2103 in Hajji Firuz is wrong, just because some crappy Yfull site says it's younger?
    Do you see me breaking the balls of everyone who doesn't think every single IE language came from some R1a hunter gatherer?

    Nah bro, you and your gang are doing those things. I am just leaning back and waiting, throwing a post now and then.
    So who is desperate? Me or you?
    The only thing i did was point out how the desperation is reeking from far away. At least keep it a little bit more discreet, it is not a must that everyone should be exposed to the smell.
    Last edited by ernekar; 05-15-2018 at 07:00 PM.

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  5. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    ALL ARCHAEOLOGY IS POLITICAL.
    That is basically why I don't read your reponses.

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  7. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by ms85 View Post
    Like I said, I'm interested in the history of my people, like everybody else. Nothing wrong with it. And when people try to spread lies about history that also does concern my native history I feel the urge to correct misinformation. This is how I am. And you didn't give an answer to my question: are West Iranians Aryans or not?
    West Iranians are far less "true Aryan" than East Iranians... The former only derive ~10-20% of their ancestry from Indo-Iranians while the latter derive anywhere from 30-55%.
    Last edited by K33; 05-15-2018 at 07:08 PM.

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  9. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    That is basically why I don't read your reponses.
    Just so you know it, the notion that all archaeology is political is shared by most archeologists of the post-processual school.
    The Post-processual school (or Deconstructionism or Social constructivism or call it whatever you want) is the dominating school in sociology, anthropology, political science, archaeology, just to mention a few.
    People like Ian Hodder(from the Catal Huyuk excavations) are part of that movement too, and he is one of the most renowned archaeologists of our time.
    Maybe you are also to 'good' to read his works?

    Anyways, good luck achieving anything in the 2018 academic world with your 1800's mindset.
    Last edited by ernekar; 05-15-2018 at 08:17 PM.

  10. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    dominating school in sociology
    LOL! That is exactly my point.

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  12. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    West Iranians are far less "true Aryan" than East Iranians... The former only derive ~10-15% of their ancestry from Indo-Iranians while the latter derive anywhere from 30-55%.
    Nice, you showed your true colours. You are being 'unmasked' so to speak. People can see now the origin of your ideas. from now on I know exactly how to deal with you!

    NEXT


    Eastern Iranians evolved actually from the Western Iranians. All that J2a, G2a etc. haplogroups in ancient BMAC are actually from Western Iran. Eastern Iranian evolved from BMAC and we already know what the roots of BMAC are. Aryans brought civilisation/high culture from Western Iran into South Central Asia.

    Aryans evolved from the Sumerians and Western Iranians are by far closer to the Sumerians than Eastern Iranians.

  13. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    LOL! That is exactly my point.
    I though so. You have no answer.

    Please go read a book, then come back.

  14. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by geomattica View Post
    Very interesting Kale. So mostly an 'Anatolian'(?...actually not familiar with Mentese_N's genetic structure...is it rather ENF?) + Neolithic Levant + CHG genetic structure.

    Also interesting the differences. Is either run more reliable than the other?
    Mentese is like 20 miles away from Barcin, Mentese_N and Barcin_N samples are both pretty much contemporary, they are basically the same thing.
    Ran Barcin_CA with f3's again. In terms of broad components, it wants mostly Anatolian farmer, 55% (as expected), 20% CHG, 15% Levant_N, 5% EHG, 5% Iran_N...maybe 1-2% WHG?
    It's a single sample so that makes it a bit noisier in f3's. 1-2% WHG isn't much, but if real, that obviously signals a movement from Europe.
    Final run
    Barcin_CA
    "Peloponnese_N" 42.8 (basically 2/3 Barcin_N, 1/3 Central Anatolian, no WHG here)
    "Satsurblia" 16.2
    "Levant_N" 15.7
    "Armenia_ChL" 15.45
    "Ukraine_Dereivka_CA" 6.1
    "Boncuklu_N" 1.75
    "Ukraine_Alexandria_CA" 1.4
    "Global_Boost5" 0.6
    "distance%=0.0972 / distance=0.000972"
    Columns: Barcin_N, Iran_N, Natufian, Kotias, MA1, Anzick, Iron_Gates_HG, Ukraine_Mesolithic, Khvalynsk

    Removing Dereivka necessitates a pretty substantial input from SE-Europe MN (there isn't much WHG there so it does take a lot).
    Last edited by Kale; 05-15-2018 at 07:28 PM.
    Collection of 14,000 d-stats: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content PM me for d-stats, qpadm, qpgraph, or f3-outgroup nmonte models.

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  16. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    I though so. You have no answer.

    Please go read a book, then come back.
    I did. It was by Alan Sokal.

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