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Thread: The first horse herders and the impact of early Bronze Age steppe expansions into Asi

  1. #821
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    The genetic history of Anatolia starts from Anatolian farmers, their positions on the PCA are radically different from modern Anatolian Turks, a lot of migrations happened. The first is the Chalcolithic shift to Iran_Ch, the second is the slight BA shift to the Levant, probably due to Assyrian colonies.

    but there must have been more, their positions are now close to the Caucasus populations, maybe a migration from Armenia MBA ?

    Which of these carried Anatolian languages ?

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  3. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    The genetic history of Anatolia starts from Anatolian farmers, their positions on the PCA are radically different from modern Anatolian Turks, a lot of migrations happened. The first is the Chalcolithic shift to Iran_Ch, the second is the slight BA shift to the Levant, probably due to Assyrian colonies.

    but there must have been more, their positions are now close to the Caucasus populations, maybe a migration from Armenia MBA ?

    Which of these carried Anatolian languages ?
    Probably neither. Anatolian languages were probably carried by small groups from the Balkans during the IIId millenium BC (this is the classical view), with limited impact on existing population.

    During Iron Age, you have also the Prygian migration from the Balkans, and the Galates one, from Central Europe. Between late Antiquity and Middle Ages, Armenians migrated in Eastern Anatolia and Northern Levant (especially in Cilicia).

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  5. #823
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Probably neither. Anatolian languages were probably carried by small groups from the Balkans during the IIId millenium BC (this is the classical view), with limited impact on existing population.
    Anatolian languages include Hittite, Palaic, Luwian, and Lydian. and others that left no written records, and these were introduced by a small group? does the classical view have any evidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    During Iron Age, you have also the Prygian migration from the Balkans, and the Galates one, from Central Europe. Between late Antiquity and Middle Ages, Armenians migrated in Eastern Anatolia and Northern Levant (especially in Cilicia).
    A lot of movements from Europe to Anatolia, all these migrations should have caused Anatolia to reside on the European cline on the PCA, or shifted to their direction, unless this migration was also by a small group that left no autosomal signature? yes, how do we know that it wasn't?

    It's interesting that we have names for these small groups that leave no trace of their existence, and yet the eastern movements from the Caucasus that actually contribute genetically are unknown.

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  7. #824
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    Central Asian Turkish ancestry considerably pushes Turks eastwards into the Caucasus. Any Greeks from Anatolia , as far east as villages in Konya plot considerably more west towards SE Europe. This is what confuses you.
    Last edited by Govan; 06-17-2018 at 05:33 PM.

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  9. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by Govan View Post
    Central Asian Turkish ancestry considerably pushes Turks eastwards into the Caucasus. Any Greeks from Anatolia , as far east as villages in Konya plot considerably more west towards SE Europe. This is what confuses you.
    I really don't know, I'll be convinced if more details on the autosomal profile of these Central Asian Turks is given, how would their migration cause modern Anatolian Turks to be Caucasus like ? but I'm open to that possibility.

    I thought the Turkish language was spoken by a small elite that imposed itself on the native inhabitants and so their migration would not leave any mark on the population, because it was imposed on them, you know, like the Anatolian languages.

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  11. #826
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    My friend , some very good Turkish members have collected DNa results of Greeks and Turks from the same regions , even the same villages , there is good amount of 20% , sometimes even 30% Central Asian admixture in Turkey , which Greeks lack altogether. Central Asian Turk is rich in ANE , EHG . East Asian , Siberian and even traces of South Asia which pull Turks very east but not further East than Caucausus , or Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Anatolian languages include Hittite, Palaic, Luwian, and Lydian. and others that left no written records, and these were introduced by a small group? does the classical view have any evidence?



    A lot of movements from Europe to Anatolia, all these migrations should have caused Anatolia to reside on the European cline on the PCA, or shifted to their direction, unless this migration was also by a small group that left no autosomal signature? yes, how do we know that it wasn't?

    It's interesting that we have names for these small groups that leave no trace of their existence, and yet the eastern movements from the Caucasus that actually contribute genetically are unknown.
    Only Hittite, Palaic and Luwian are attested in the IId millennium. Lydian, Carian,... were closely related to Luwian (perhaps by descend). By small groups, it means that they let little traces in archeology, if any trace at all. What is clear, is that they could still be considered as intrusive in the XVIIIth century.

    As an example: Hittites considered themselves as "the people of Kanesh (Kültepe)". But it was a Hattic city, and Hittites never form the majority of the population, only a large minority (with IE speakers becoming the majority at some point, so with Hittites+Luwian).

    On your second point, Armenians have a lot of Caucasian ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Only Hittite, Palaic and Luwian are attested in the IId millennium. Lydian, Carian,... were closely related to Luwian (perhaps by descend). By small groups, it means that they let little traces in archeology if any trace at all. What is clear, is that they could still be considered as intrusive in the XVIIIth century.

    As an example: Hittites considered themselves as "the people of Kanesh (Kültepe)". But it was a Hattic city, and Hittites never form the majority of the population, only a large minority (with IE speakers becoming the majority at some point, so with Hittites+Luwian).
    Leave little traces in Archaelogy, leave little traces in genetics, this is basically unfalsifiable, the science of Ancient DNA cant refute this hypothesis, it's not a hypothesis anymore, it's a belief.

    I guess we have to believe then, but ancient DNA didn't even confirm it.

    What makes a statement a scientific hypothesis ? A scientific hypothesis must meet 2 requirements:

    A scientific hypothesis must be testable, and;
    A scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable.

    The main aspect I’d bring up with this is that in other areas, steppe ancestry has spread deeply and widely into the population, including non-Indo-European ones.

    On your second point, Armenians have a lot of Caucasian ancestry.
    but you said they came from the Balkans ? or did I misunderstood you ?
    Last edited by IronHorse; 06-18-2018 at 12:42 AM.

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  17. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    I thought the Turkish language was spoken by a small elite that imposed itself on the native inhabitants and so their migration would not leave any mark on the population, because it was imposed on them, you know, like the Anatolian languages.
    Not exactly. The arrival of the Turks in the Byzantine Empire did have a huge demographic impact, and large parts became scarcely populated. If we have to believe the commentators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Leave little traces in Archaelogy, leave little traces in genetics, this is basically unfalsifiable, the science of Ancient DNA cant refute this hypothesis, it's not a hypothesis anymore, it's a belief.

    I guess we have to believe then, but ancient DNA didn't even confirm it.

    What makes a statement a scientific hypothesis ? A scientific hypothesis must meet 2 requirements:

    A scientific hypothesis must be testable, and;
    A scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable.

    The main aspect I’d bring up with this is that in other areas steppe ancestry has spread deeply and widely into the population, including non-Indo-European ones.



    but you said they came from the Balkans ? or did I misunderstood you ?
    When I said "little traces", I mean no trace of destruction, and no trace of settlement. Some burials could be linked to some IE, but very few adult burials have been found in Anatolia for EBA. This is one of the major difficulties.

    If they were pastoralists, it could explain why they left little traces. Bulgarian Yamnaya are only known because of their kurgans.

    DNA could not give answer to everything. Many Anatolian IE speakers in the late IId millenium became so because Hittite was the language of the state, and Luwian a lingua franca. They were not ethnically IE.

    If we try to use DNA, we'll need an early and proper Hittite or Luwian burial. As I said, burials are rare for EBA. And even at Kanesh, Hittites were a minority, so most of burials could be non-Hittites. Another point: Hittites adopted cremation for their Royals. No DNA to find there.

    As you see, not as simple as for Yamnaya in the Steppe (with thousands of kurgans).

    Armenians were from Armenia, South of Caucasus.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 06-17-2018 at 10:46 PM.

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