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Thread: The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus[preprint Harvard/Jena]

  1. #1031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Where can I find such details? AFAIK, Yunusbayev did not test for Z645, Z94, Z2125 nor CTS1211, as those mutations were unknown in 2011.
    Underhill et al (2014), "The phylogenetic and geographic structure of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a". I think it's the same dataset - at least, if not, it happens to have exactly the same number of samples, of R1a-M198, and of R1a-M458.

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  3. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Underhill et al (2014), "The phylogenetic and geographic structure of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a". I think it's the same dataset - at least, if not, it happens to have exactly the same number of samples, of R1a-M198, and of R1a-M458.
    Updated from:
    1. Underhill PA, Myres NM, Rootsi S et al: Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a. Eur J Hum Genet 2010; 18: 479-484

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  5. #1033
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    Yeah, and the Underhill et al (2010) study is cited by Yunusbayev et al (2011), but they don't say anything about getting samples from it. Myres et al (2011), who I got the R1b data from, also updated their data from Underhill et al (2010), and also have the same sample size and proportion of R1b as Yunusbayev et al. Rootsi et al (2012), the source for G, do give Yunusbayev et al as the source.
    Last edited by Megalophias; 01-11-2019 at 04:53 PM.

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  7. #1034
    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Which Caucasian Urheimat?
    I was a bit pissed when I posted that bullshit, my bad lol

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  9. #1035
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterne View Post
    If there is voluminous evidence of the presence of non-IE languages across most of the range of those maps around 2000BCE (or earlier or slightly later), rather than just the Northeast of Anatolia or Syrian (which would be rather edge cases considering most of the territory on them), then yes, that's a good argument against those languages always being present and longstanding there. Otherwise, it seems simpler to assume the languages were always there or were longstanding there, in the absence of direct evidence.

    They "could be different" is OK, sur, but the onus is probably on the person to claim that they could be different is on the person making the positive claim (and there needs to be some direct evidence surely, it's not sufficient for it to be more useful or fitting with some other general hypothesis or there is the risk that it is circular reasoning), less on those like Marc Van de Mieroop who claim "There is no reason to assume that speakers of Indo-European languages were not always present in Anatolia, nor can we say that they would have been a clearly identifiable group by the second millennium. We can only observe that when the textual sources inform us of the languages used in Anatolia, some people spoke Indo-European ones, others not.".
    About the languages from the Luwian branch:

    Melchert "The Luwians":
    "The absence thus far of archaeological evidence for Bronze Age settlements in Lycia may be explained in any number of ways. While we cannot exclude the possibility that the precursors of the speakers of Lycian and Carian moved south from northwestern Anatolia only at the end of the second millennium, absolutely nothing supports such an assumption. All that we now know argues rather that pre-Lycian and pre-Carian speech communities were located in the southwest already in the second millennium and probably by the end of the third. This statement emphatically is not meant to claim that these speakers necessarily already occupied the territories of later classical Caria or Lycia."

    Hawkins in Luwians Identities:
    "Melchert's assertion: “absolutely nothing supports such an assumption”, on which Yakubovich places such reliance, seems to me a misplaced emphasis. To my mind it would better read: “there is no evidence either for or against such an assumption."

    Yakubovich is placing (at the beginning on the 2d millennium) Hittite only around Kanesh, Palaic in Pala, and Luwian in the Konya Steppe and along the Sakarya river.

    From other sources, there is a consensus about presence of IE around Kanesh (Hittites and Luwians), in the Konyan Steppe (Luwians) and Pala (Palians) at the times of the Assyrian colonies period. And that’s all. There is no consensus about presence of Luwian in Arzawa or Kizzuwatna (despite being 2 Luwian strongholds in the 2d half of the 2d millennium).

    At this time, given Hattic influences on IE languages (heavy in Hittite and even heavier in Palaic), we can postulate a presence of several hundreds of years prior 1700 BC. The intrusiveness of IE languages in Anatolia is perfectly clear for nearly everyone (if it was not the case, words used to describe faunae and florae would not be loanwords, among other things).
    Last edited by ffoucart; 01-12-2019 at 12:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Those maps are consistent across many studies.....
    Those maps are not false but are showing the max extent of Anatolia IE. As said, problem is they are mixing different periods of time. Palaic gone extinct around 1400BC, at a time when we know nothing about the location of carian, lydian ..

    Luwian is globalised even if there are huge difference between the one spoke in Kizzuwatna and the one spoke elsewhere. Hurrian was also spoken in Kizzuwatna, other languages in Syria and so on.

    That’s why you can’t use it to deduce location of IE around 2000BC.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 01-12-2019 at 01:03 PM.

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  13. #1037
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Melchert "The Luwians":
    "The absence thus far of archaeological evidence for Bronze Age settlements in Lycia may be explained in any number of ways. While we cannot exclude the possibility that the precursors of the speakers of Lycian and Carian moved south from northwestern Anatolia only at the end of the second millennium, absolutely nothing supports such an assumption. All that we now know argues rather that pre-Lycian and pre-Carian speech communities were located in the southwest already in the second millennium and probably by the end of the third. This statement emphatically is not meant to claim that these speakers necessarily already occupied the territories of later classical Caria or Lycia."
    Trying to grasp this; Is the speaker arguing that the Bronze Age territory of later Lycia was unoccupied, or that occupied by people who he knows were not speakers of (proto) Lycian or Carian?

    Mostly certain it's the the former, which implies quite a bit of genetic shift should accompany later Lycians or Carians, as it will be hardly be possible that a population is not present earlier, and then present later just in time to absorb and minimize the appearance of influences from the Balkans or steppe such that. The latter I'm not sure what the evidence would be for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    At this time, given Hattic influences on IE languages (heavy in Hittite and even heavier in Palaic), we can postulate a presence of several hundreds of years prior 1700 BC. The intrusiveness of IE languages in Anatolia is perfectly clear for nearly everyone (if it was not the case, words used to describe faunae and florae would not be loanwords, among other things).
    Regarding lexicon, do you happen to have a good reference for flora and fauna loanwords into Anatolian languages? I want to understand what flora and fauna would've been unknown to a people from the Balkans, but would've been known to people from East-Central Anatolia. (Especially as some schemas place both of these in the same bioregion).
    Wiki implies "Unlike Hittite, the Luwian language does not contain loanwords from Hattic" and points me to Anthony, where I only find references to the following around loanwords:

    "The Hittites borrowed Hattic words for throne, lord, king, queen, queen mother, heir apparent, priest, and a long list of palace officials and cult leaders—probably in a historical setting where the Hattic languages were the languages of royalty. Palaic, the second Anatolian language, also borrowed vocabulary from Hattic. Palaic was spoken in a city called Pala probably located in north-central Anatolia north of Ankara. Given the geography of Hattic place-names and Hattic-Palaic/Hittite loans, Hattic seems to have been spoken across all of central Anatolia before Hittite or Palaic was spoken there ... Luwian did not borrow from Hattic and so might have been spoken originally in western Anatolia, outside the Hattic core region....On the other hand, Luwian did borrow from other, unknown non-Indo-European language(s)."

    But it would hardly be surprising for Hittites to borrow Hattic terms of governance and local place names if they've usurped their government, and that in itself is not evidence for an origin external to Anatolia. The idea of specific climate loanwords that distinguish between the Balkans and East-Central Anatolia seems more useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterne View Post
    Trying to grasp this; Is the speaker arguing that the Bronze Age territory of later Lycia was unoccupied, or that occupied by people who he knows were not speakers of (proto) Lycian or Carian?

    Mostly certain it's the the former, which implies quite a bit of genetic shift should accompany later Lycians or Carians, as it will be hardly be possible that a population is not present earlier, and then present later just in time to absorb and minimize the appearance of influences from the Balkans or steppe such that. The latter I'm not sure what the evidence would be for that.


    Regarding lexicon, do you happen to have a good reference for flora and fauna loanwords into Anatolian languages? I want to understand what flora and fauna would've been unknown to a people from the Balkans, but would've been known to people from East-Central Anatolia. (Especially as some schemas place both of these in the same bioregion).
    Wiki implies "Unlike Hittite, the Luwian language does not contain loanwords from Hattic" and points me to Anthony, where I only find references to the following around loanwords:

    "The Hittites borrowed Hattic words for throne, lord, king, queen, queen mother, heir apparent, priest, and a long list of palace officials and cult leaders—probably in a historical setting where the Hattic languages were the languages of royalty. Palaic, the second Anatolian language, also borrowed vocabulary from Hattic. Palaic was spoken in a city called Pala probably located in north-central Anatolia north of Ankara. Given the geography of Hattic place-names and Hattic-Palaic/Hittite loans, Hattic seems to have been spoken across all of central Anatolia before Hittite or Palaic was spoken there ... Luwian did not borrow from Hattic and so might have been spoken originally in western Anatolia, outside the Hattic core region....On the other hand, Luwian did borrow from other, unknown non-Indo-European language(s)."

    But it would hardly be surprising for Hittites to borrow Hattic terms of governance and local place names if they've usurped their government, and that in itself is not evidence for an origin external to Anatolia. The idea of specific climate loanwords that distinguish between the Balkans and East-Central Anatolia seems more useful.
    I am not a linguist, so on such matter, you could post a request in the due forum. Nonetheless, again from Melchert (The Luwians): « There is no doubt that the Hittites took the names for some flora and fauna of Anatolia from other languages ».

    One point about the Luwian branch must taken into consideration: when we have the first traces of Carian, Lydian,... it’s after the migration of Phrygians. And since Phrygians settled in the core of the old Luwian territory, their migration could have « pushed » Luwian related people outside their old territory in search of new lands. That is also why people are cautious about the initial location of Carians and the sort. IA saw big changes in Anatolia.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 01-12-2019 at 07:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    I

    I am not a linguist, so on such matter, you could post a request in the due forum. Nonetheless, again from Melchert (The Luwians): « There is no doubt that the Hittites took the names for some flora and fauna of Anatolia from other languages ».

    One point about the Luwian branch must taken into consideration: when we have the first traces of Carian, Lydian,... it’s after the migration of Phrygians. And since Phrygians settled in the core of the old Luwian territory, their migration could have « pushed » Luwian related people outside their old territory in search of new lands. That is also why people are cautious about the initial location of Carians and the sort. IA saw big changes in Anatolia.
    correct me
    but the Phyrgians are suppose to have come to Anatolia from the Balkans and settled as neighbous of the lydians ( supposed etruscan origin ) in which they warred against each other circa 500BC
    Is Luwian origin in Konya province of Turkey?........I thought it was in SE-Anatolia

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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  19. #1040
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    correct me
    but the Phyrgians are suppose to have come to Anatolia from the Balkans and settled as neighbous of the lydians ( supposed etruscan origin ) in which they warred against each other circa 500BC
    Is Luwian origin in Konya province of Turkey?........I thought it was in SE-Anatolia
    Phrygians migration is dated to the end of the IId millenium, around or just after the Bronze Age Collapse. The kingdom of Phrygia had its capital at Gordion (on the Sakarya river). Phrygia englobed much of Anatolia inner Steppe (or Konyan Steppe).

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