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Thread: The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus[preprint Harvard/Jena]

  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Your datation seems a bit higher than what we can see on average.

    There is a relative consensus among linguists to date the split of Proto Anatolian from PIE to between the late Vth millenium and the IVth millenium, with the first half of the IVth seen as most likely, so between 4000 and 3500 BC.

    The entry in Anatolia been often dated to the IIId millennium, it would mean that Proto Hittite/Palaic/Luwian emerged at least at that time.

    So on overall, it would mean something more like:
    - 4000/3500 split from PIE,
    - 3000/2500 split from Proto Anatolian
    - 3000/2000 entry in Anatolia

    I don’t understand your argument about languages from another branch of PIE: as already said, the linguistic map of Anatolia around 2000 BC is unknown. Especially in Western Anatolia where we can found much later different IE languages from the same branch as Luwian (like Carian or Lycian), which were likely already present around 2000BC. Other unknown languages became extinct without been attested.
    My option would be that the split of Proto-Anatolian from PIE could be linked with the emergence of Cernadova I, with the split of Proto-Hittite/Palaic and Proto-Luwian could be linked with Cernadova III and Yamnaya Bulgaria (Yamnaya Bulgaria seems an evolution of Cernadova III with addition of new migrants from the Pontic Steppe with influence of Ezero).

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  3. #1022
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    You do realize that Anthrogenica is one of the more sensible corners of the Internet, don't you? I'd be surprised and disappointed if many posters here flipped out over something like that. Whereas somewhere like EgyptSearch there'd be a tidal wave of nonsense, and the Stormfront types would have conniptions.
    From a forum perspective MOST without a doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Over how many years did this happen? - Hittite, Luwian, and Palaic migrations to Anatolia - and from where?.

    Hittite, Luwian, and Palaic are there in Anatolia by circa 1900 BC.
    All three descend from a proposed Proto-Anatolian from the time of their split (~3500 BC?).
    Before that we would have common pre-Anatolian period going back to its split (~4500 BC?) from PIE.

    So potentially from 3500 BC to 1900 BC the Anatolian languages entered Anatolia from another location.
    But they did not go anywhere else, only to Anatolia.
    No other language from the non-Anatolian branch of PIE shows up in Anatolia during that period.

    From the other PIE branch, the Mycenaenas show up in Greece circa 1650 BC and the Indo Aryans in Syria prior to 1761 BC.
    Related, not necessarily in contradiction to your or ffoucart's comments in the thread: Thinking about multiple migrations into Anatolia to give rise to different Anatolian languages, rather than diversification within over a longer time scale, does seem like it's more complicated but may well have happened if that's what more evidence supports.

    But if it did happen, and quite a lot of Anatolia was covered by a diversified group of Indo-European languages*, then it does seem a bit more difficult that none of these migrations brought either substantial genetic shift towards the steppe, nor to the Balkans. Argument that we shouldn't expect enriched steppe or Balkans Chalcolithic type ancestry in Anatolia because Hittites were only an demographically small elite that took over the central institutions of the Hattians seems more difficult to apply to all of these groups. (Esp. if Syrian samples of time of Mitanni does show demographic impacts from Turan+Steppe_MLBA Indo-Aryan groups under Mitanni, then argument that relative population sizes of Near East vs others would mean that any migration would be heavily diluted is also less plausible.)

    *Language distribution I'm assuming on the basis of the sort of distribution that seems to be indicated by figures https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~rnoyer/c...11Hittites.pdf or http://wiki.verbix.com/Languages/Ana...gory.Anatolian.

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  7. #1024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterne View Post
    Related, not necessarily in contradiction to your or ffoucart's comments in the thread: Thinking about multiple migrations into Anatolia to give rise to different Anatolian languages, rather than diversification within over a longer time scale, does seem like it's more complicated but may well have happened if that's what more evidence supports.

    But if it did happen, and quite a lot of Anatolia was covered by a diversified group of Indo-European languages*, then it does seem a bit more difficult that none of these migrations brought either substantial genetic shift towards the steppe, nor to the Balkans. Argument that we shouldn't expect enriched steppe or Balkans Chalcolithic type ancestry in Anatolia because Hittites were only an demographically small elite that took over the central institutions of the Hattians seems more difficult to apply to all of these groups. (Esp. if Syrian samples of time of Mitanni does show demographic impacts from Turan+Steppe_MLBA Indo-Aryan groups under Mitanni, then argument that relative population sizes of Near East vs others would mean that any migration would be heavily diluted is also less plausible.)

    *Language distribution I'm assuming on the basis of the sort of distribution that seems to be indicated by figures https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~rnoyer/c...11Hittites.pdf or http://wiki.verbix.com/Languages/Ana...gory.Anatolian.
    The problem with those maps (the same in fact), is that it is showing the maximum geographical extent of Anatolian languages, with no chronology or presence of other languages (as an example, Luwian in Northern Syria is clearly intrusive).

    I will not repeat myself about the linguistic map around 2000 BC. But there is no reason to postulate that large parts of Anatolia were covered by IE groups.

    The areas of presence of Carian, Lycian .... during IA could have been very different of the ones during EBA.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 01-11-2019 at 11:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Abkhazians from the larger sample (n=162) of Yunusbayev et al (2011):
    [...]
    9% R1a-Z645 - 6% R1a-Z94 (including Z2125), 4% R1a-Z282 (including M458 and CT1211)
    Where can I find such details? AFAIK, Yunusbayev did not test for Z645, Z94, Z2125 nor CTS1211, as those mutations were unknown in 2011.

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  11. #1026
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    A question for the Anatolian specialists: do the Anatolian languages certainly share a common ancestor after their common ancestor with other IE-languages, or is it possible that all Antolian languages are as far from the other IE languages as from each other, meaning that the common features in anatolian languages that are lacking in other IE languages are due to the other IE languages evolving together?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    A question for the Anatolian specialists: do the Anatolian languages certainly share a common ancestor after their common ancestor with other IE-languages, or is it possible that all Antolian languages are as far from the other IE languages as from each other, meaning that the common features in anatolian languages that are lacking in other IE languages are due to the other IE languages evolving together?
    From my readings, Anotolian languages are derived from proto-Anatolian, even if the existence of proto-anatolian is not a certainty (the same can be said about PIE). But it does not seem that Anatolian languages are equally related to other IE languages. Some proposals have been made about influences on or from Greek and Western IE languages (by Puhvel and Melchert at least for Western influences).
    Last edited by ffoucart; 01-11-2019 at 01:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    The problem with those maps (the same in fact), is that it is showing the maximum geographical extent of Anatolian languages, with no chronology or presence of other languages (as an example, Luwian in Northern Syria is clearly intrusive).

    I will not repeat myself about the linguistic map around 2000 BC. But there is no reason to postulate that large parts of Anatolia were covered by IE groups.

    The areas of presence of Carian, Lycian .... during IA could have been very different of the ones during EBA.
    If there is voluminous evidence of the presence of non-IE languages across most of the range of those maps around 2000BCE (or earlier or slightly later), rather than just the Northeast of Anatolia or Syrian (which would be rather edge cases considering most of the territory on them), then yes, that's a good argument against those languages always being present and longstanding there. Otherwise, it seems simpler to assume the languages were always there or were longstanding there, in the absence of direct evidence.

    They "could be different" is OK, sur, but the onus is probably on the person to claim that they could be different is on the person making the positive claim (and there needs to be some direct evidence surely, it's not sufficient for it to be more useful or fitting with some other general hypothesis or there is the risk that it is circular reasoning), less on those like Marc Van de Mieroop who claim "There is no reason to assume that speakers of Indo-European languages were not always present in Anatolia, nor can we say that they would have been a clearly identifiable group by the second millennium. We can only observe that when the textual sources inform us of the languages used in Anatolia, some people spoke Indo-European ones, others not.".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean-Pierre View Post
    Haven't you heard about Out of Africa?
    The only blacks depicted on ancient Egyptians wall paintings, example, the prisoners of Ramses shows only Nubians as black, Libyans and hittites as white and brown for others

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    The problem with those maps (the same in fact), is that it is showing the maximum geographical extent of Anatolian languages, with no chronology or presence of other languages (as an example, Luwian in Northern Syria is clearly intrusive).

    I will not repeat myself about the linguistic map around 2000 BC. But there is no reason to postulate that large parts of Anatolia were covered by IE groups.

    The areas of presence of Carian, Lycian .... during IA could have been very different of the ones during EBA.
    Those maps are consistent across many studies.....

    The question one needs to ask did the Phoenicians create the Euboea alphabet in Greece from .....clearly a non Semitic place like luwian or carian lands etc .....and did the Phoenicians live in luwian lands, because luwian is clearly in the northern levant circa 1000 bc

    Studies shows us luwian disappeared circa 600 bc

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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