Page 104 of 107 FirstFirst ... 45494102103104105106 ... LastLast
Results 1,031 to 1,040 of 1066

Thread: The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus[preprint Harvard/Jena]

  1. #1031
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,551
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA
    K1

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by Eterne View Post
    Related, not necessarily in contradiction to your or ffoucart's comments in the thread: Thinking about multiple migrations into Anatolia to give rise to different Anatolian languages, rather than diversification within over a longer time scale, does seem like it's more complicated but may well have happened if that's what more evidence supports.

    But if it did happen, and quite a lot of Anatolia was covered by a diversified group of Indo-European languages*, then it does seem a bit more difficult that none of these migrations brought either substantial genetic shift towards the steppe, nor to the Balkans. Argument that we shouldn't expect enriched steppe or Balkans Chalcolithic type ancestry in Anatolia because Hittites were only an demographically small elite that took over the central institutions of the Hattians seems more difficult to apply to all of these groups. (Esp. if Syrian samples of time of Mitanni does show demographic impacts from Turan+Steppe_MLBA Indo-Aryan groups under Mitanni, then argument that relative population sizes of Near East vs others would mean that any migration would be heavily diluted is also less plausible.)

    *Language distribution I'm assuming on the basis of the sort of distribution that seems to be indicated by figures https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~rnoyer/c...11Hittites.pdf or http://wiki.verbix.com/Languages/Ana...gory.Anatolian.
    The problem with those maps (the same in fact), is that it is showing the maximum geographical extent of Anatolian languages, with no chronology or presence of other languages (as an example, Luwian in Northern Syria is clearly intrusive).

    I will not repeat myself about the linguistic map around 2000 BC. But there is no reason to postulate that large parts of Anatolia were covered by IE groups.

    The areas of presence of Carian, Lycian .... during IA could have been very different of the ones during EBA.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 01-11-2019 at 11:05 AM.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Hando (01-12-2019),  palamede (01-11-2019),  Ruderico (01-11-2019)

  3. #1032
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,521
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA
    R1a-L1280
    mtDNA
    H2a2(b)

    Poland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Abkhazians from the larger sample (n=162) of Yunusbayev et al (2011):
    [...]
    9% R1a-Z645 - 6% R1a-Z94 (including Z2125), 4% R1a-Z282 (including M458 and CT1211)
    Where can I find such details? AFAIK, Yunusbayev did not test for Z645, Z94, Z2125 nor CTS1211, as those mutations were unknown in 2011.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Michał For This Useful Post:

     Hando (01-12-2019)

  5. #1033
    Registered Users
    Posts
    131
    Sex
    Omitted

    A question for the Anatolian specialists: do the Anatolian languages certainly share a common ancestor after their common ancestor with other IE-languages, or is it possible that all Antolian languages are as far from the other IE languages as from each other, meaning that the common features in anatolian languages that are lacking in other IE languages are due to the other IE languages evolving together?

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to rafc For This Useful Post:

     Hando (01-12-2019)

  7. #1034
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,551
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA
    K1

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    A question for the Anatolian specialists: do the Anatolian languages certainly share a common ancestor after their common ancestor with other IE-languages, or is it possible that all Antolian languages are as far from the other IE languages as from each other, meaning that the common features in anatolian languages that are lacking in other IE languages are due to the other IE languages evolving together?
    From my readings, Anotolian languages are derived from proto-Anatolian, even if the existence of proto-anatolian is not a certainty (the same can be said about PIE). But it does not seem that Anatolian languages are equally related to other IE languages. Some proposals have been made about influences on or from Greek and Western IE languages (by Puhvel and Melchert at least for Western influences).
    Last edited by ffoucart; 01-11-2019 at 01:18 PM.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Hando (01-12-2019),  Ruderico (01-11-2019)

  9. #1035
    Registered Users
    Posts
    221
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    The problem with those maps (the same in fact), is that it is showing the maximum geographical extent of Anatolian languages, with no chronology or presence of other languages (as an example, Luwian in Northern Syria is clearly intrusive).

    I will not repeat myself about the linguistic map around 2000 BC. But there is no reason to postulate that large parts of Anatolia were covered by IE groups.

    The areas of presence of Carian, Lycian .... during IA could have been very different of the ones during EBA.
    If there is voluminous evidence of the presence of non-IE languages across most of the range of those maps around 2000BCE (or earlier or slightly later), rather than just the Northeast of Anatolia or Syrian (which would be rather edge cases considering most of the territory on them), then yes, that's a good argument against those languages always being present and longstanding there. Otherwise, it seems simpler to assume the languages were always there or were longstanding there, in the absence of direct evidence.

    They "could be different" is OK, sur, but the onus is probably on the person to claim that they could be different is on the person making the positive claim (and there needs to be some direct evidence surely, it's not sufficient for it to be more useful or fitting with some other general hypothesis or there is the risk that it is circular reasoning), less on those like Marc Van de Mieroop who claim "There is no reason to assume that speakers of Indo-European languages were not always present in Anatolia, nor can we say that they would have been a clearly identifiable group by the second millennium. We can only observe that when the textual sources inform us of the languages used in Anatolia, some people spoke Indo-European ones, others not.".

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Eterne For This Useful Post:

     Hando (01-12-2019)

  11. #1036
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,438
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA
    T1a2b- Z19945 - Jura
    mtDNA
    H95a - Osii

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Austria Tirol Germany Palatinate
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean-Pierre View Post
    Haven't you heard about Out of Africa?
    The only blacks depicted on ancient Egyptians wall paintings, example, the prisoners of Ramses shows only Nubians as black, Libyans and hittites as white and brown for others

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to vettor For This Useful Post:

     Hando (01-12-2019)

  13. #1037
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,438
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA
    T1a2b- Z19945 - Jura
    mtDNA
    H95a - Osii

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Austria Tirol Germany Palatinate
    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    The problem with those maps (the same in fact), is that it is showing the maximum geographical extent of Anatolian languages, with no chronology or presence of other languages (as an example, Luwian in Northern Syria is clearly intrusive).

    I will not repeat myself about the linguistic map around 2000 BC. But there is no reason to postulate that large parts of Anatolia were covered by IE groups.

    The areas of presence of Carian, Lycian .... during IA could have been very different of the ones during EBA.
    Those maps are consistent across many studies.....

    The question one needs to ask did the Phoenicians create the Euboea alphabet in Greece from .....clearly a non Semitic place like luwian or carian lands etc .....and did the Phoenicians live in luwian lands, because luwian is clearly in the northern levant circa 1000 bc

    Studies shows us luwian disappeared circa 600 bc

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to vettor For This Useful Post:

     Hando (01-12-2019)

  15. #1038
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,261
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Anglo
    Nationality
    Canadian

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Where can I find such details? AFAIK, Yunusbayev did not test for Z645, Z94, Z2125 nor CTS1211, as those mutations were unknown in 2011.
    Underhill et al (2014), "The phylogenetic and geographic structure of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a". I think it's the same dataset - at least, if not, it happens to have exactly the same number of samples, of R1a-M198, and of R1a-M458.

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Megalophias For This Useful Post:

     Hando (01-12-2019),  Michał (01-11-2019),  parasar (01-11-2019)

  17. #1039
    Registered Users
    Posts
    6,083

    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Underhill et al (2014), "The phylogenetic and geographic structure of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a". I think it's the same dataset - at least, if not, it happens to have exactly the same number of samples, of R1a-M198, and of R1a-M458.
    Updated from:
    1. Underhill PA, Myres NM, Rootsi S et al: Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a. Eur J Hum Genet 2010; 18: 479-484

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     Hando (01-12-2019)

  19. #1040
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,261
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Anglo
    Nationality
    Canadian

    Yeah, and the Underhill et al (2010) study is cited by Yunusbayev et al (2011), but they don't say anything about getting samples from it. Myres et al (2011), who I got the R1b data from, also updated their data from Underhill et al (2010), and also have the same sample size and proportion of R1b as Yunusbayev et al. Rootsi et al (2012), the source for G, do give Yunusbayev et al as the source.
    Last edited by Megalophias; 01-11-2019 at 04:53 PM.

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to Megalophias For This Useful Post:

     parasar (01-12-2019)

Page 104 of 107 FirstFirst ... 45494102103104105106 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Which has greater autosomal genetic diversity: Europe or China?
    By Tomenable in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-19-2018, 03:17 AM
  2. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 01-28-2018, 02:39 PM
  3. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 01-22-2018, 03:10 PM
  4. Racial Purity,Harvardís Eugenics Era
    By rock hunter in forum History (Modern)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-05-2016, 08:36 AM
  5. Replies: 55
    Last Post: 02-20-2016, 10:52 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •