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Thread: The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus[preprint Harvard/Jena]

  1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Which Caucasian Urheimat?
    I was a bit pissed when I posted that bullshit, my bad lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterne View Post
    If there is voluminous evidence of the presence of non-IE languages across most of the range of those maps around 2000BCE (or earlier or slightly later), rather than just the Northeast of Anatolia or Syrian (which would be rather edge cases considering most of the territory on them), then yes, that's a good argument against those languages always being present and longstanding there. Otherwise, it seems simpler to assume the languages were always there or were longstanding there, in the absence of direct evidence.

    They "could be different" is OK, sur, but the onus is probably on the person to claim that they could be different is on the person making the positive claim (and there needs to be some direct evidence surely, it's not sufficient for it to be more useful or fitting with some other general hypothesis or there is the risk that it is circular reasoning), less on those like Marc Van de Mieroop who claim "There is no reason to assume that speakers of Indo-European languages were not always present in Anatolia, nor can we say that they would have been a clearly identifiable group by the second millennium. We can only observe that when the textual sources inform us of the languages used in Anatolia, some people spoke Indo-European ones, others not.".
    About the languages from the Luwian branch:

    Melchert "The Luwians":
    "The absence thus far of archaeological evidence for Bronze Age settlements in Lycia may be explained in any number of ways. While we cannot exclude the possibility that the precursors of the speakers of Lycian and Carian moved south from northwestern Anatolia only at the end of the second millennium, absolutely nothing supports such an assumption. All that we now know argues rather that pre-Lycian and pre-Carian speech communities were located in the southwest already in the second millennium and probably by the end of the third. This statement emphatically is not meant to claim that these speakers necessarily already occupied the territories of later classical Caria or Lycia."

    Hawkins in Luwians Identities:
    "Melchert's assertion: “absolutely nothing supports such an assumption”, on which Yakubovich places such reliance, seems to me a misplaced emphasis. To my mind it would better read: “there is no evidence either for or against such an assumption."

    Yakubovich is placing (at the beginning on the 2d millennium) Hittite only around Kanesh, Palaic in Pala, and Luwian in the Konya Steppe and along the Sakarya river.

    From other sources, there is a consensus about presence of IE around Kanesh (Hittites and Luwians), in the Konyan Steppe (Luwians) and Pala (Palians) at the times of the Assyrian colonies period. And that’s all. There is no consensus about presence of Luwian in Arzawa or Kizzuwatna (despite being 2 Luwian strongholds in the 2d half of the 2d millennium).

    At this time, given Hattic influences on IE languages (heavy in Hittite and even heavier in Palaic), we can postulate a presence of several hundreds of years prior 1700 BC. The intrusiveness of IE languages in Anatolia is perfectly clear for nearly everyone (if it was not the case, words used to describe faunae and florae would not be loanwords, among other things).
    Last edited by ffoucart; 01-12-2019 at 12:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Those maps are consistent across many studies.....
    Those maps are not false but are showing the max extent of Anatolia IE. As said, problem is they are mixing different periods of time. Palaic gone extinct around 1400BC, at a time when we know nothing about the location of carian, lydian ..

    Luwian is globalised even if there are huge difference between the one spoke in Kizzuwatna and the one spoke elsewhere. Hurrian was also spoken in Kizzuwatna, other languages in Syria and so on.

    That’s why you can’t use it to deduce location of IE around 2000BC.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 01-12-2019 at 01:03 PM.

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  7. #1044
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Melchert "The Luwians":
    "The absence thus far of archaeological evidence for Bronze Age settlements in Lycia may be explained in any number of ways. While we cannot exclude the possibility that the precursors of the speakers of Lycian and Carian moved south from northwestern Anatolia only at the end of the second millennium, absolutely nothing supports such an assumption. All that we now know argues rather that pre-Lycian and pre-Carian speech communities were located in the southwest already in the second millennium and probably by the end of the third. This statement emphatically is not meant to claim that these speakers necessarily already occupied the territories of later classical Caria or Lycia."
    Trying to grasp this; Is the speaker arguing that the Bronze Age territory of later Lycia was unoccupied, or that occupied by people who he knows were not speakers of (proto) Lycian or Carian?

    Mostly certain it's the the former, which implies quite a bit of genetic shift should accompany later Lycians or Carians, as it will be hardly be possible that a population is not present earlier, and then present later just in time to absorb and minimize the appearance of influences from the Balkans or steppe such that. The latter I'm not sure what the evidence would be for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    At this time, given Hattic influences on IE languages (heavy in Hittite and even heavier in Palaic), we can postulate a presence of several hundreds of years prior 1700 BC. The intrusiveness of IE languages in Anatolia is perfectly clear for nearly everyone (if it was not the case, words used to describe faunae and florae would not be loanwords, among other things).
    Regarding lexicon, do you happen to have a good reference for flora and fauna loanwords into Anatolian languages? I want to understand what flora and fauna would've been unknown to a people from the Balkans, but would've been known to people from East-Central Anatolia. (Especially as some schemas place both of these in the same bioregion).
    Wiki implies "Unlike Hittite, the Luwian language does not contain loanwords from Hattic" and points me to Anthony, where I only find references to the following around loanwords:

    "The Hittites borrowed Hattic words for throne, lord, king, queen, queen mother, heir apparent, priest, and a long list of palace officials and cult leaders—probably in a historical setting where the Hattic languages were the languages of royalty. Palaic, the second Anatolian language, also borrowed vocabulary from Hattic. Palaic was spoken in a city called Pala probably located in north-central Anatolia north of Ankara. Given the geography of Hattic place-names and Hattic-Palaic/Hittite loans, Hattic seems to have been spoken across all of central Anatolia before Hittite or Palaic was spoken there ... Luwian did not borrow from Hattic and so might have been spoken originally in western Anatolia, outside the Hattic core region....On the other hand, Luwian did borrow from other, unknown non-Indo-European language(s)."

    But it would hardly be surprising for Hittites to borrow Hattic terms of governance and local place names if they've usurped their government, and that in itself is not evidence for an origin external to Anatolia. The idea of specific climate loanwords that distinguish between the Balkans and East-Central Anatolia seems more useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterne View Post
    Trying to grasp this; Is the speaker arguing that the Bronze Age territory of later Lycia was unoccupied, or that occupied by people who he knows were not speakers of (proto) Lycian or Carian?

    Mostly certain it's the the former, which implies quite a bit of genetic shift should accompany later Lycians or Carians, as it will be hardly be possible that a population is not present earlier, and then present later just in time to absorb and minimize the appearance of influences from the Balkans or steppe such that. The latter I'm not sure what the evidence would be for that.


    Regarding lexicon, do you happen to have a good reference for flora and fauna loanwords into Anatolian languages? I want to understand what flora and fauna would've been unknown to a people from the Balkans, but would've been known to people from East-Central Anatolia. (Especially as some schemas place both of these in the same bioregion).
    Wiki implies "Unlike Hittite, the Luwian language does not contain loanwords from Hattic" and points me to Anthony, where I only find references to the following around loanwords:

    "The Hittites borrowed Hattic words for throne, lord, king, queen, queen mother, heir apparent, priest, and a long list of palace officials and cult leaders—probably in a historical setting where the Hattic languages were the languages of royalty. Palaic, the second Anatolian language, also borrowed vocabulary from Hattic. Palaic was spoken in a city called Pala probably located in north-central Anatolia north of Ankara. Given the geography of Hattic place-names and Hattic-Palaic/Hittite loans, Hattic seems to have been spoken across all of central Anatolia before Hittite or Palaic was spoken there ... Luwian did not borrow from Hattic and so might have been spoken originally in western Anatolia, outside the Hattic core region....On the other hand, Luwian did borrow from other, unknown non-Indo-European language(s)."

    But it would hardly be surprising for Hittites to borrow Hattic terms of governance and local place names if they've usurped their government, and that in itself is not evidence for an origin external to Anatolia. The idea of specific climate loanwords that distinguish between the Balkans and East-Central Anatolia seems more useful.
    I am not a linguist, so on such matter, you could post a request in the due forum. Nonetheless, again from Melchert (The Luwians): « There is no doubt that the Hittites took the names for some flora and fauna of Anatolia from other languages ».

    One point about the Luwian branch must taken into consideration: when we have the first traces of Carian, Lydian,... it’s after the migration of Phrygians. And since Phrygians settled in the core of the old Luwian territory, their migration could have « pushed » Luwian related people outside their old territory in search of new lands. That is also why people are cautious about the initial location of Carians and the sort. IA saw big changes in Anatolia.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 01-12-2019 at 07:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    I

    I am not a linguist, so on such matter, you could post a request in the due forum. Nonetheless, again from Melchert (The Luwians): « There is no doubt that the Hittites took the names for some flora and fauna of Anatolia from other languages ».

    One point about the Luwian branch must taken into consideration: when we have the first traces of Carian, Lydian,... it’s after the migration of Phrygians. And since Phrygians settled in the core of the old Luwian territory, their migration could have « pushed » Luwian related people outside their old territory in search of new lands. That is also why people are cautious about the initial location of Carians and the sort. IA saw big changes in Anatolia.
    correct me
    but the Phyrgians are suppose to have come to Anatolia from the Balkans and settled as neighbous of the lydians ( supposed etruscan origin ) in which they warred against each other circa 500BC
    Is Luwian origin in Konya province of Turkey?........I thought it was in SE-Anatolia

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    correct me
    but the Phyrgians are suppose to have come to Anatolia from the Balkans and settled as neighbous of the lydians ( supposed etruscan origin ) in which they warred against each other circa 500BC
    Is Luwian origin in Konya province of Turkey?........I thought it was in SE-Anatolia
    Phrygians migration is dated to the end of the IId millenium, around or just after the Bronze Age Collapse. The kingdom of Phrygia had its capital at Gordion (on the Sakarya river). Phrygia englobed much of Anatolia inner Steppe (or Konyan Steppe).

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    Interesting reading


    http://www.academia.edu/24273902/The...c_or_Anatolian

    and a discussion on alberto's forum

    https://adnaera.com/2019/01/13/minoa...t-open-thread/

    the possible ( IMHO likely) IE nature of minoan is a game chamger and a real bombshell.
    Last edited by etrusco; 01-13-2019 at 11:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Interesting reading


    http://www.academia.edu/24273902/The...c_or_Anatolian

    and a discussion on alberto's forum

    https://adnaera.com/2019/01/13/minoa...t-open-thread/

    ]



    the possible ( IMHO likely) IE nature of minoan is a game chamger and a real bombshell.

    Interesting. Albanians actually plotted closer to minoans from the heraklion regional unit in the Lazaridis study.

    A famous serbian linguist (see below) believed that Albanian was part of a pre-greek IE language family that used to be in greece and the balkans.



    Famous Serbian Linguist believed Albanian language to be descendant of a Pre-Greek IE language in the Aegean and Balkans.

    Milan Budimir was professor emeritus of classical languages at the university of Belgrade.

    Pg 64

    "Budimir accepts Pedersen's law and believes that Albanian, distinguishing the three series of Indo-European stops, continues the oldest linguistic stratum in the Balkan and that the Pre-Greek Indo-European language belonged to the same family. This he tries to prove by establishing Greek loan words of Pre-Greek origin which distinguish also the three kinds of lndo-European velar stops.

    According to Budimir, such loan words are for instance:

    (see image)

    they show an assibilation of both Indo-European palatals and labio-velars. Budimir therefore postulates a special relationship between the Pre-Greek Indo-European language and modern Albanian. In this he follows von Hahn and Thomopulos who thought that Albanian was a modern form of the ancient Pelasgian language.

    Pg 63

    "Milan Budimir, professor emeritus of classical languages at the university of Belgrade, believes that the Pre-Greek population of the Aegean area was very mixed ethnically and linguistically and that among this population there was also an Indo-European layer belonging to a special branch of this family in which all three series of velar stops (the palatals, the pure velars, and the labio-velars) were preserved as distinct phonemes. Such an Indo-European language is Albanian if Pedersen is right in postulating a sound law to the effect that Indo-European labio-velars are assibilated in Albanian before front vowels while pure velars remain unchanged in this position :

    Alb. pjek 'I fry' < IE *pekwo
    Alb. pese 'five' < IE *penkwe
    Alb. sy 'eyes' < IE *okwe

    but

    Alb. kohe 'time' < IE *kesa

    Pg 70

    "It should be stressed, however, that although Budimir
    appears as a champion of pre-classical Indo-Europeanism he never denied the existence of a still older non-Indo-European linguistic stratum in the Aegean area and the whole Mediterranean. "


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  19. #1050
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Interesting reading


    http://www.academia.edu/24273902/The...c_or_Anatolian

    and a discussion on alberto's forum

    https://adnaera.com/2019/01/13/minoa...t-open-thread/

    the possible ( IMHO likely) IE nature of minoan is a game chamger and a real bombshell.
    Not exactly new. Other scholars tryed to link Linear A to various languages. Among them, various IE languages, Anatolians ones included (like Carian). If you don’t find Finkelberg as a source, it is because she failed to convince.

    One big (very big) difficulty to an IE is that the language written in Linear A seems agglutinative. No IE is. Even Armenian, while presenting some agglutinative tendencies (due to the influences of neighboring Caucasian languages) is not. Some Anatolian languages had agglutinative tendencies too (in Hittite due to influence from Hattic and in Luwian due to influences from Hurrian). But they weren’t agglutinative stricto sensu.

    So if the language written in Linear A was truly agglutinative, in all likewood, it was not an IE language.

    By the way, Finkelberg’s title is interesting: why should we choose between Greek, Anatolian or Semitic? Why Linear A language should be one of those languages families? Why not another language family or an isolate?

    All in all, if Minoan was an IE, don’t you think we should be able to decypher at least some sriptures in Linear A? We have less from some IE languages, but we can understand what is written. This is not the case for Linear A.

    So, it is very unlikely, if Linear A is the writing system of Minoan, that Minoan was an IE language, even of the Anatolian branch.

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