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Thread: The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus[preprint Harvard/Jena]

  1. #1041
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    Interesting reading


    http://www.academia.edu/24273902/The...c_or_Anatolian

    and a discussion on alberto's forum

    https://adnaera.com/2019/01/13/minoa...t-open-thread/

    the possible ( IMHO likely) IE nature of minoan is a game chamger and a real bombshell.
    Last edited by etrusco; 01-13-2019 at 11:42 AM.

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  3. #1042
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Interesting reading


    http://www.academia.edu/24273902/The...c_or_Anatolian

    and a discussion on alberto's forum

    https://adnaera.com/2019/01/13/minoa...t-open-thread/

    ]



    the possible ( IMHO likely) IE nature of minoan is a game chamger and a real bombshell.

    Interesting. Albanians actually plotted closer to minoans from the heraklion regional unit in the Lazaridis study.

    A famous serbian linguist (see below) believed that Albanian was part of a pre-greek IE language family that used to be in greece and the balkans.



    Famous Serbian Linguist believed Albanian language to be descendant of a Pre-Greek IE language in the Aegean and Balkans.

    Milan Budimir was professor emeritus of classical languages at the university of Belgrade.

    Pg 64

    "Budimir accepts Pedersen's law and believes that Albanian, distinguishing the three series of Indo-European stops, continues the oldest linguistic stratum in the Balkan and that the Pre-Greek Indo-European language belonged to the same family. This he tries to prove by establishing Greek loan words of Pre-Greek origin which distinguish also the three kinds of lndo-European velar stops.

    According to Budimir, such loan words are for instance:

    (see image)

    they show an assibilation of both Indo-European palatals and labio-velars. Budimir therefore postulates a special relationship between the Pre-Greek Indo-European language and modern Albanian. In this he follows von Hahn and Thomopulos who thought that Albanian was a modern form of the ancient Pelasgian language.

    Pg 63

    "Milan Budimir, professor emeritus of classical languages at the university of Belgrade, believes that the Pre-Greek population of the Aegean area was very mixed ethnically and linguistically and that among this population there was also an Indo-European layer belonging to a special branch of this family in which all three series of velar stops (the palatals, the pure velars, and the labio-velars) were preserved as distinct phonemes. Such an Indo-European language is Albanian if Pedersen is right in postulating a sound law to the effect that Indo-European labio-velars are assibilated in Albanian before front vowels while pure velars remain unchanged in this position :

    Alb. pjek 'I fry' < IE *pekwo
    Alb. pese 'five' < IE *penkwe
    Alb. sy 'eyes' < IE *okwe

    but

    Alb. kohe 'time' < IE *kesa

    Pg 70

    "It should be stressed, however, that although Budimir
    appears as a champion of pre-classical Indo-Europeanism he never denied the existence of a still older non-Indo-European linguistic stratum in the Aegean area and the whole Mediterranean. "


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  5. #1043
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Interesting reading


    http://www.academia.edu/24273902/The...c_or_Anatolian

    and a discussion on alberto's forum

    https://adnaera.com/2019/01/13/minoa...t-open-thread/

    the possible ( IMHO likely) IE nature of minoan is a game chamger and a real bombshell.
    Not exactly new. Other scholars tryed to link Linear A to various languages. Among them, various IE languages, Anatolians ones included (like Carian). If you don’t find Finkelberg as a source, it is because she failed to convince.

    One big (very big) difficulty to an IE is that the language written in Linear A seems agglutinative. No IE is. Even Armenian, while presenting some agglutinative tendencies (due to the influences of neighboring Caucasian languages) is not. Some Anatolian languages had agglutinative tendencies too (in Hittite due to influence from Hattic and in Luwian due to influences from Hurrian). But they weren’t agglutinative stricto sensu.

    So if the language written in Linear A was truly agglutinative, in all likewood, it was not an IE language.

    By the way, Finkelberg’s title is interesting: why should we choose between Greek, Anatolian or Semitic? Why Linear A language should be one of those languages families? Why not another language family or an isolate?

    All in all, if Minoan was an IE, don’t you think we should be able to decypher at least some sriptures in Linear A? We have less from some IE languages, but we can understand what is written. This is not the case for Linear A.

    So, it is very unlikely, if Linear A is the writing system of Minoan, that Minoan was an IE language, even of the Anatolian branch.

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  7. #1044
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    check all video or from 23min onwards

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOd_hodh7Mc

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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  9. #1045
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    On the topic of Minoans, here's an F3 outgroup nmonte model.

    Minoan
    "Macedonia_EN" 23.8
    "Armenia_EBA" 20.95
    "Greece_N" 16.25
    "Tepecik_Ciftlik_N" 14.65
    "Bulgaria_EN" 12.5
    "Romania_EN" 11.15
    "Croatia_EN" 0.7
    "distance%=0.155 / distance=0.00155"
    Columns: Barcin_N, Levant_N, Iran_N, Kotias, Taforalt, MA1, ANA, Iron_Gates_HG, EHG, Afanasievo, Ami, Onge, Ust_Ishim

    Kura_Araxes didn't make it to Minoan territory did it? If not what is the likely source for this type of ancestry? Would Linear A be associated with it? If so, what does that say about this type of ancestry elsewhere?

    SW Anatolia 2800-1800BC - I2495 & I2683
    "Armenia_EBA" 35.1
    "Israel_CA" 29.5
    "Romania_EN" 20.75
    "Barcin_CA" 12
    "Bulgaria_EN" 2.45
    "Global_Boost5" 0.2
    "distance%=0.2907 / distance=0.002907"
    Columns: Barcin_N, Levant_N, Iran_N, Kotias, Taforalt, MA1, ANA, Iron_Gates_HG, EHG, Afanasievo, Ami, Onge, Ust_Ishim

    Central Anatolia 2700-2000BC - MA22(10,12,13)
    "Armenia_EBA" 48.8
    "Tepecik_Ciftlik_N" 44.6
    "Natufian" 3.35
    "Mota" 2.85
    "Jordan_EBA" 0.4
    "distance%=0.268 / distance=0.00268"
    Columns: Barcin_N, Levant_N, Iran_N, Kotias, Taforalt, MA1, ANA, Iron_Gates_HG, EHG, Afanasievo, Ami, Onge, Ust_Ishim

    Jordan_EBA 2500-2000BC
    "Levant_N" 43.95
    "Armenia_EBA" 27.65
    "Israel_CA" 16.1
    "Seh_Gabi_LN" 8.2
    "Seh_Gabi_CA" 1.8
    "Greece_N" 1.7
    "Mota" 0.6
    "distance%=0.2754 / distance=0.002754"
    Columns: Barcin_N, Natufian, Iran_N, Kotias, Taforalt, MA1, ANA, Iron_Gates_HG, EHG, Afanasievo, Ami, Onge, Ust_Ishim

    EDIT: ANA in columns = Anzick & Kennewick
    Collection of 14,000 d-stats: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content PM me for d-stats, qpadm, or f3-outgroup nmonte models. Looking for: KEB-IAM-TOR and Baikal_EN in plink/eigenstrat 1240k panel

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  11. #1046
    That Bronze Age conference from December 2018 (important concerning the Caucasus and Bell Beakers) is starting to upload videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...6L9bFQ1uC2Nv4q

    Two videos have been deleted however. On Bing, one of the Youtube previews has been preserved:


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  13. #1047
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    Approximate branch J-Y3020 during the Maikop culture J-Y3020 formed 3800 ybp TMRCA 2900 ybp

    J-Y11200formed 2900 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybp

    CTS6804 formed 2900 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybp

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  15. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Phrygians migration is dated to the end of the IId millenium, around or just after the Bronze Age Collapse. The kingdom of Phrygia had its capital at Gordion (on the Sakarya river). Phrygia englobed much of Anatolia inner Steppe (or Konyan Steppe).
    It has to be earlier than that. The Phrygians, but also the Dardanians (Trojans) and Mysians are also from the Balkans, and they are all firmly established in Anatolia during the time of the Trojan War.


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  17. #1049
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    That Bronze Age conference from December 2018 (important concerning the Caucasus and Bell Beakers) is starting to upload videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...6L9bFQ1uC2Nv4q

    Two videos have been deleted however. On Bing, one of the Youtube previews has been preserved:

    Damn! That looks extremely interesting, is Albanian branching off from Germanic?

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  19. #1050
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    He states just standard Ringe and Warnow tree that's been knocking around since early 2000s. That is, basically:

    REzbNam.png
    dKevhyh.png

    (with dates here)

    Supporters claim that the principles of “perfect phylogeny” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_phylogeny) on even sparse phonological and morphological data (which is all that really matters) mean that this is a virtually unchallengable tree.

    Detractors point (Max Planck and most of the people who are involved in using massive lexical datasets to solve the phylogeny problem) point to the fact that the paucity of shared morphological features between IE branches means that "the main higher-order nodes in their output trees turn out to be supported by just two, one or even none of these phonological and morphological characters", and that this a pretty limited set of characters to define a tree on ("perfect phylogeny" or no), compared to a tree that puts lots of weight on lexical characters.

    Your mileage may vary.

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