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Thread: The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus[preprint Harvard/Jena]

  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    Female mediation of early PIE from northern Iran to the steppe is really the only way to salvage an ultimately non-steppe homeland for PIE; it's a very long shot but the male-mediated hypothesis from Iran/Caucasus has basically no shot at this point. If Keltiminar was proto-Uralic as Nashariman et al seem to propose, that would explain the IE-Uralic connection, which is the biggest stumbling block for Caucasian hypothesis aficionados.

    Like Generalissimo said, female-mediated language seems quite rare based on the combined genetic/linguistic data patterns we currently have. But CHG/Iran_N mtdna clearly moves up to the Steppe immediately prior to the male-mediated spread of the Late PIE dialects.

    The big problem with this hypothesis, is that all the attested ancient Middle Eastern languages we have like Sumerian, Hurrian, Akkadian etc aren't similar at all to Indo-European. It seems highly unlikely PIE would have made such little impact on neighboring Near Eastern languages if it had indeed been incubated there.
    So are Manean, Kaskian, Gutian, Hatti, Elamite - all language isolates in the ancient ME, and all are completely different from PIE.

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  3. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    You might have missed it in the onslaught of samples but we an 11.000 year old new EHG sample from around Samara. It's in one of the Damgaard papers.
    PS lost at all is that he fact, that Khvalynsk is the DIRECT successor of Samara Culture. So PIE (or Pre-PIE) may have its roots and beginning in Samara (8,000 years ago)?

    Just a thought...

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  5. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidski View Post
    PS lost at all is that he fact, that Khvalynsk is the DIRECT successor of Samara Culture. So PIE (or Pre-PIE) may have its roots and beginning in Samara (8,000 years ago)?

    Just a thought...
    Sredny Stog fits PIE better than Samara, because PIE speakers were familiar with farming, and Sredny Stog was in contact with farmers in western Ukraine.

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  7. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    So. For the South of the Caucasus Urheimat hypothesis to be true we need:

    1) Either R1b/R1a being accidently not sampled yet in the Caucasus area. (Or in Armenian_Ch. Or in Armenian_EBA.) or PIE to be female mediated to the north.
    2) Kura-Araxes to be Proto-Indo-European.
    3) Yet Uartians to be immigrants, and the language to pick up no substratum. So total replacement.

    Did I miss something?
    I agree with you that PIE arose on the Steppe, albeit R1a1 was missing in Samara, Khvalynsk and Yamnaya Cultures, which were predominantly R1b1b1. Lately there's a doubt among scientists that Yamna ó> Corder Ware ó> Bell Beaker, due to CWC being overwhelmingly R1a1 and Yamna + Bell Beaker being R1b. Don Donets and Stredny Stog OTOH were R1a1, which raises the question of the "Indo-Europeanization" of the Western Eurasian Steppe zone.

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  9. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidski View Post
    So are Manean, Kaskian, Gutian, Hatti, Elamite - all language isolates in the ancient ME, and all are completely different from PIE.
    Yeah and you forgot also Subarean Hurrians. But not sure about the Gutians. Nothing is known about the language of the Gutians, but the names of their kings, like Inkishush, Inimabakesh, Sarlagab, Kurum, Tirigan etc. sound very Iranic. According to Ivanov it was close to the Tocharian languages.

  10. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidski View Post
    I agree with you that PIE arose on the Steppe, albeit R1a1 was missing in Samara, Khvalynsk and Yamnaya Cultures, which were predominantly R1b1b1. Lately there's a doubt among scientists that Yamna —> Corder Ware —> Bell Beaker, due to CWC being overwhelmingly R1a1 and Yamna + Bell Beaker being R1b. Don Donets and Stredny Stog OTOH were R1a1, which raises the question of the "Indo-Europeanization" of the Western Eurasian Steppe zone.
    There's R1a in Khvalynsk in 1/3 samples. So what makes you think that R1a1 was missing there?

    There's also a Sredny Stog II sample from the steppe with R1a-M417. It looks very Yamnaya like, and almost identical to Corded Ware. So how is CWC from the steppe in doubt?

    But you know all this, right?

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  12. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Sredny Stog fits PIE better than Samara, because PIE speakers were familiar with farming, and Sredny Stog was in contact with farmers in western Ukraine.
    Stredny Stog was on the same cultural horizon as Khvalynsk (="Samara Eneolithic"), but all evidence points to R1b Samara/Khvalynsk being the first speaker of archaic PIE. Mutual contact between Yamnaya and Cucuteni Tripolye (mixed I2 WHG and G1, E1B1 farmers) may be plausibly responsible for the 12% EEF ancestry in Yamna (rather than Anatolia), with some sprinkles of WHG. Animal husbandry and horse domestication came from the West (Cucuteni), not Maykop. The latter culture brought metallurgy and Kurgans, but pigs, sheep, cows and goats originated in the Balkan.

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  14. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidski View Post
    Stredny Stog was on the same cultural horizon as Khvalynsk (="Samara Eneolithic"), but all evidence points to R1b Samara/Khvalynsk being the first speaker of archaic PIE. Mutual contact between Yamnaya and Cucuteni Tripolye (mixed I2 WHG and G1, E1B1 farmers) may be plausibly responsible for the 12% EEF ancestry in Yamna (rather than Anatolia), with some sprinkles of WHG. Animal husbandry and horse domestication came from the West (Cucuteni), not Maykop. The latter culture brought metallurgy and Kurgans, but pigs, sheep, cows and goats originated in the Balkan.
    Well, there's R1a in Khvalynsk too.

    But anyway, I just gave you evidence of why Sredny Stog is a better culture for PIE than Khvalynsk, so what contrary "all" evidence do you have?

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  16. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    There's R1a in Khvalynsk in 1/3 samples. So what makes you think that R1a1 was missing there?

    There's also a Sredny Stog II sample from the steppe with R1a-M417. It looks very Yamnaya like, and almost identical to Corded Ware. So how is CWC from the steppe in doubt?

    But you know all this, right?
    Bell Beaker was Steppe- infused replacement of the Neilithic farmers by R1b IE speaking Yamna from the Pontic Steppe. Corder Ware came from the Steppe but was derived mainly from Stredny Stog. By any chance, both R1a1 and R1b came from Mal'ta Burret (or at least AG) in the proximity of Lake Baikal in Siberia, and are therefore a source of ANE (EHG = WHG + ANE). Therefore, CHG ancestry could only have been female mediated (at best). Therefore I rule out PIE originating anywhere but on the Steppe.

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  18. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidski View Post
    Bell Beaker was Steppe- infused replacement of the Neilithic farmers by R1b IE speaking Yamna from the Pontic Steppe. Corder Ware came from the Steppe but was derived mainly from Stredny Stog. By any chance, both R1a1 and R1b came from Mal'ta Burret (or at least AG) in the proximity of Lake Baikal in Siberia, and are therefore a source of ANE (EHG = WHG + ANE). Therefore, CHG ancestry could only have been female mediated (at best). Therefore I rule out PIE originating anywhere but on the Steppe.
    I asked you a question: There's R1a in Khvalynsk in 1/3 samples. So what makes you think that R1a1 was missing there?

    And nope, I don't think that R1a1 and R1b came from around Lake Baikal in Siberia. Maybe R did, but R1a and R1b look more western.

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