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Thread: INdo Iranian and Tocherian? DNA

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    INdo Iranian and Tocherian? DNA

    Indo Iranian and Tocharian are two Indo European languages their ancestral forms started to migrate out of Yamna culture in Russia deep into Asia at earliest 5,000ybp(my opinion). I am trying to figure out basically what the mtDNA, Y DNA, hair color, and eye color percentages of those people were unless they were a mix of very different people in eastern Europe.

    For mtDNA I only counted Caucasian haplogroups since they inter married with Mongliods so much in asia and their Mongliod mtDNA haplogroups are typical for Siberian, Mongolian, Hunnic, and Chinese samples from the Iron age so they almost definitely did not bring them from Russia. It is true that Mongliod mtDNA C surprisingly popular in Neolithic Ukraine cultures ancestral to Yamna but still it cant explain all their Mongliod mtDNA. I also took pretty much all Caucasian mtDNA found in Huns, Mongols, Siberians, and Chinese from the Iron age most are typical for Indo Iranians U2e, U4, U5a, H, T1, K. Except shockingly mainly Near eastern U subclades U1, U3, and U7 are in Chinese and even Indo Iranian samples. This my mean some type of contact with China or just people around China, Mongolia, and Siberia with Near eastern's possibly from around Pakistan. Hopefully can help explain Near eastern southwest Asian and west Asian (globe13) in western China, Mongolia, and south Siberia that usually exceeds North European which would come from Indo Iranians and Tocharian's.

    mtDNA=83
    U=29 35%(U5=16(U5a=13(U5a1=9),U2=5(U2e=4(U2e1=1), U4=4(U4*=1), U*=1, U7=1, U1=1)
    T=16 19.3%(T1=8(T1a=3), T3=3, T*=2, T2=1, T2a1b-T4=1)
    H=16 19.3%(H?=7, H5=1, U2a1=1, H6=1, H2a1=1)
    K=6 7.2%(K2b=1)
    I=3 3.6%(I3=2)
    J=3 3.6%(J1=2)
    W=1 1.2%
    H or U=3 3.6%
    U5 or J=1 1.2%

    Y DNA=19: R1a1=18(R1a1a=7), C(notC3)=1

    Pigmentation from Genes
    Skin color=8: fair to medium=8
    Hair color=10: blonde-light brown=6, Brown=3, Dark Brown=1
    eye color=22: blue or green=15, brown=7


    With the 83 mtDNA samples the best guess of their mtDNA is U=30-40%(U5a1=20%, U2e=5-10%, U4=5-10%), H=15-30%(mainly in order H6, H2, H1, H3, and H5), T=15-20%(T1=10-20%, T2=1-5%, T3=1-5%), J=1-10%(mainly J1 then probably Euro J1c), I=0.1-5%(at least some I3), W=0.1-5%. The U5a1, U2e, and U4 all are extremely popular in Mesolithic mtDNA in eastern Europe. And like I say in Chronology of European I think mtDNA U5 would have come to Europe as U about 50,000-60,000ybp and developed into U5 while in Europe about 50,000ybp. U2 since it is in the oldest mtDNA sample in Europe 37,985 years old it would have arrived probably over 40,000ybp and developed into U2e. U4 is estimated as 25,000 years old and I think either originated in Europe or migrated to Europe 15,000-25,000ybp. The rest of their mtDNA is typical for farming Europeans in Neloithic age and all the ages after that. High amount of H then also good amount of T and the existence of I,W, and J.
    Last edited by Fire Haired; 10-10-2013 at 02:05 AM.

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    Apparently my mt-DNA was found at a Scythian grave site?


    Iron Age burials (Pazyryk culture) in the Altai Mountains of Mongolia
    Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture
    Mongolia
    Olon-Kurin-Gol Valley cemetery 6 [OKG-6-2, 3] F + inf
    400-200 BC

    HV2 - 2 samples found in same grave of 16217C, 00072C, 00073G, 00152C, +7025 HinfI, -14766 MseI

    source: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

    "Burials at Pazyryk in the Altay Mountains have included some spectacularly preserved Scythians of the "Pazyryk culture" – including the Ice Maiden of the 5th century BC."

    source: Tracing the Origin of the East-West Population Admixture in the Altai Region (Central Asia)
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0048904

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    But something different is how high T may have been in Indo Iranians and Tocherians 15-20% and that all may have been T1 almost all T in Ancient European mtDNA that has subclade identified is under subclade T2. T1 according to (Mitochondrial DNA Signals of Late Glacial Recolonization of Europe from Near Eastern Refugia) arrived in Europe as T1a about 15,000 years ago. Its high amount in Indo Iranians is unique and can give an idea of were exactly in Europe at least part of their maternal ancestry originated. It is supringly low J is and that there is no X. The H subclades so far from Indo Iranians is H6(mainly in central asia and eastern Europe), H2(mainly in eastern Europe), and H5(mainly in the Near east). I got those regions fro the subclades from (Learning about mtDNA haplogroup H).

    With 19 y DNA samples they were definitely very heavily R1a1a specifically Indo Iranian and Tocharian subclade R1a1a1b2 Z93. The C(not C3) most likely is from Mongliod inter marriage. R1a1 pops up in multiple sites they spread it a ton in asia that is why it is one of the main Y DNA hg's of central Asia and Indo Iranian speakers. I think it is pretty for sure they spread R1a1a1b2 Z93 and possibly also R1b1a1 M73 and J2b but either way I would think they had been around 90% or more Y DNA R1a1a1b2 Z93. But that does not really give an idea of were they originated by looking at high R1a Europeans, Because around 5,000ybp Yamna culture also expanded more west in Europe with Corded ware culture which spoke the ancestral language to Balto Slavic and spread R1a1a1b1 Z283(my opinon) the main Y DNA haplogroup of eastern Europe close to 50% of total Y DNA. R1a1a M17 most likely originated and spread out of around Ukraine and Russia so that's all we can say about their Y DNA(R1a1 FTDNA). Most of their ancestry may have been from a people R1a1a1b S224 Indo Europeans conquered.

    With their hair and eye color it is seems they were very light haired and eyed possibly mainly. It is not nearly enough samples to get a perfect idea of their percentages but they definitely were in the same range as modern central, eastern, and northern Europeans. Probably around 40-60% fair hair(not only yellow) and over 60% light eyes so I guess they would fit best with people around the Baltic sea, northwestern Russia, and Scandinavia. Some very light haired and eyed people that pop up in modern Indo Iranians speakers in the Near east and south Asia.

    Out of 10 hair color samples red hair did not pop up but even for Irish would not be a surprise. 3,000 year old man with brown head hair and red facial hair(Cherchen man) was found in Tarim Basin China I think most likely Indo Iranian or Tocharian. The Budhni a Scythian tribe in modern day Ukriane were described by Greek Historian Herodtus as all having bright red hair(click here) and today Ukriane has under 1% red hair(click here and here). The Tocharian's were described by Chinese as being red and blonde haired and there is ancient Chinese art depicting Tocharian's as red haired. Red hair does pop up in modern day Indo Iranian speakers in the Near east(Origin and ancient history of red hair). Today red hair is kind of isolated in two parts of Europe western Europe and Volga Russia those are the only areas of Europe with 1% or more red hair. It seems the people who spoke the ancestral language to Indo Iranian and Tocharian had 1% or more red hair which maybe points to their ancestry mainly coming from around Volga Russia were red hair is 14% of the Udmurts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    Apparently my mt-DNA was found at a Scythian grave site?


    Iron Age burials (Pazyryk culture) in the Altai Mountains of Mongolia
    Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture
    Mongolia
    Olon-Kurin-Gol Valley cemetery 6 [OKG-6-2, 3] F + inf
    400-200 BC

    HV2 - 2 samples found in same grave of 16217C, 00072C, 00073G, 00152C, +7025 HinfI, -14766 MseI

    source: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

    "Burials at Pazyryk in the Altay Mountains have included some spectacularly preserved Scythians of the "Pazyryk culture" – including the Ice Maiden of the 5th century BC."

    source: Tracing the Origin of the East-West Population Admixture in the Altai Region (Central Asia)
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0048904
    I guess you may have a common ancestor to those remains on the maternal line maybe 4,000-5,000 years ago.
    Last edited by Fire Haired; 10-10-2013 at 02:05 AM.

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    My mtdna is also found in Rostov Scythian's http://dienekes.blogspot.in/2012/11/...scythians.html
    and it also found in one royal viking grave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenji.aryan View Post
    My mtdna is also found in Rostov Scythian's http://dienekes.blogspot.in/2012/11/...scythians.html
    and it also found in one royal viking grave.
    If that is the Oseberg burial U7 you are referring to, that one had interesting symbolism.
    Note the folded legs, Buddhist form of swastikas, and the form (mudra) of the closed eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenji.aryan View Post
    My mtdna is also found in Rostov Scythian's http://dienekes.blogspot.in/2012/11/...scythians.html
    and it also found in one royal viking grave.
    I just realized you are a U7. I started a thread yesterday under autosomal discussing U7, W, and HV2. I have tabulated and mapped frequency among South Asian groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    If that is the Oseberg burial U7 you are referring to, that one had interesting symbolism.
    Note the folded legs, Buddhist form of swastikas, and the form (mudra) of the closed eyes.
    I started a thread yesterday under autosomal detailing frequency of U7, W, and HV2 among S and SC Asian populations. I have tabulated and mapped the frequencies.

    Anything you can contribute under that thread to further the understanding of the origins of any of those lineages and overlapping with some west asian groups would be most appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenji.aryan View Post
    My mtdna is also found in Rostov Scythian's http://dienekes.blogspot.in/2012/11/...scythians.html
    and it also found in one royal viking grave.
    Mine too
    Y-dna: L1b*-M317 (Pontic Cluster, PH8+, PH2079+, Y49809+)

    G25 Admixtures Chalcolithic/EBA
    Target: Caspian_scaled
    Distance: 2.2236% / 0.02223551
    35.0 CAUCASUS_EBA(Maykop_Caucasus+Kura_Araxes_Armenia)
    22.0 ANATOLIA_Chalcolithic
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    10.6 STEPPE
    6.6 LEVANT_Chalcolithic

    G25 Admixtures Modern
    Target: Caspian_scaled
    Distance: 2.4618% / 0.02461828
    39.0 Armenian
    30.6 KAZ_Kipchak
    27.2 Armenian_Hemsheni
    3.2 Iranian_Lor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caspian View Post
    Mine too
    Did you use jameslick mtdna tool http://dna.jameslick.com/mthap/ ?
    and can we share our results i mean top match so that we can know whether we have same mutation's

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