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Thread: J1-ZS241 from Salerno province Italy

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by alchemist223 View Post
    Just wanted to update everyone that there is a new sample sharing Francesco's subclade, BY143137 from Amman, Jordan.
    While the kit is labeled as being from Jordan, this individual's paternal ancestors apparently came from Jaffa. This has some important implications, while Jaffa is mentioned as a major Canaanite site in LBA Egyptian sources (The Taking of Joppa & Amarna letters) it was incorporated into the zone of Philistine control during the Iron IB when Philistine settlement reached its maximum extent (orange area on the map):

     

    Tel Qasile, another Philistine site (or at the very least one tied to the Sea Peoples) was located only some 20km north of Jaffa. During the Iron II however, there seems to have been a large degree of acculturation, the typically Aegean traits of Philistine culture slowly faded away, this period sees the appearance of a degenerative form of Philistine Bichrome Ware known as "Late Philistine Decorated Pottery" (LPDW; also known as "Ashdod Ware"):

     

    This form of pottery seems to have been strongly influenced by contemporary Phoenician pottery. This is congruent with the adoption of a Phoenician dialect closely resembling Old Byblian, the adoption of the Phoenician script and the appearance of Canaanite-style figurines, the consumption of pork also diminishes significantly during the Iron II period. Instead of mere acculturation, we are quite possibly witnessing Phoenicianisation during this period, that is to say Phoenician settlement in Philistia. In fact, this is also visible from a genetic vantage point, the IA2 Ashkelonites currently at our disposal are near-identical to the MBA Sidonians and Iron II samples from Beirut:

     


    For that matter, they are significantly closer to them than to the preceding LBA population, which in my view is quite telling indeed:

     


    While we should remain on the side of caution, I think the evidence so far allows us to say that the Iron I Aegean settlers' descendants didn't simply dwindle and fade away (as the authors of the Philistine study insinuated), they were quite clearly replaced by Phoenician settlers. As far as Jaffa is of concern, Eshmunazar II would later boast about his annexation of the area, a territorial gain which was no doubt made easier by the fact that the population must have been largely of Phoenician background:

     


    With this new sample, a Phoenician origin now makes the most sense for BY143137, this would account for the lineage's distribution perfectly and places it in the same league as J-L829, we should expect it to eventually show up in Tyrian or Sidonian remains. For that matter, Y179831 might also be of Phoenician origin considering the Albanian cases under FGC12816. More generally, it significantly reinforces the correlation between ZS241/Y3081 and Canaanite speech.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-15-2021 at 12:16 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #12
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    I would associate Canaanites with E-M123, being the autochthonous Afroasiatic speakers of the area, with J being more associated with Mesopotamia. But yes, this Salernitan's haplogroup is Phoenician in origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I would associate Canaanites with E-M123, being the autochthonous Afroasiatic speakers of the area, with J being more associated with Mesopotamia. But yes, this Salernitan's haplogroup is Phoenician in origin.
    By the time of Canaanite identity and speech in the Levant, E-M123 and "J" were already diverse and common in the population.
     
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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    While the kit is labeled as being from Jordan, this individual's paternal ancestors apparently came from Jaffa. This has some important implications, while Jaffa is mentioned as a major Canaanite site in LBA Egyptian sources (The Taking of Joppa & Amarna letters) it was incorporated into the zone of Philistine control during the Iron IB when Philistine settlement reached its maximum extent (orange area on the map):

     

    Tel Qasile, another Philistine site (or at the very least one tied to the Sea Peoples) was located only some 20km north of Jaffa. During the Iron II however, there seems to have been a large degree of acculturation, the typically Aegean traits of Philistine culture slowly faded away, this period sees the appearance of a degenerative form of Philistine Bichrome Ware known as "Late Philistine Decorated Pottery" (LPDW; also known as "Ashdod Ware"):

     

    This form of pottery seems to have been strongly influenced by contemporary Phoenician pottery. This is congruent with the adoption of a Phoenician dialect closely resembling Old Byblian, the adoption of the Phoenician script and the appearance of Canaanite-style figurines, the consumption of pork also diminishes significantly during the Iron II period. Instead of mere acculturation, we are quite possibly witnessing Phoenicianisation during this period, that is to say Phoenician settlement in Philistia. In fact, this is also visible from a genetic vantage point, the IA2 Ashkelonites currently at our disposal are near-identical to the MBA Sidonians and Iron II samples from Beirut:

     


    For that matter, they are significantly closer to them than to the preceding LBA population, which in my view is quite telling indeed:

     


    While we should remain on the side of caution, I think the evidence so far allows us to say that the Iron I Aegean settlers' descendants didn't simply dwindle and fade away (as the authors of the Philistine study insinuated), they were quite clearly replaced by Phoenician settlers. As far as Jaffa is of concern, Eshmunazar II would later boast about his annexation of the area, a territorial gain which was no doubt made easier by the fact that the population must have been largely of Phoenician background:

     


    With this new sample, a Phoenician origin now makes the most sense for BY143137, this would account for the lineage's distribution perfectly and places it in the same league as J-L829, we should expect it to eventually show up in Tyrian or Sidonian remains. For that matter, Y179831 might also be of Phoenician origin considering the Albanian cases under FGC12816. More generally, it significantly reinforces the correlation between ZS241/Y3081 and Canaanite speech.
    recent studies link the philistines to either crete or other aegean islands as their origin

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...nes-180972561/

    Now, researchers have extracted DNA from the remains of 10 individuals, including four infants, who were buried at Ashkelon during the Bronze Age and Iron Age. The results, which were published today in the journal Science Advances, suggest the Philistines indeed migrated to the Middle East from southern Europe.

    ....................................

    The Philistines were an aggressive, warmongering people who occupied territory southwest of Israel between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. The name “Philistine” comes from the Hebrew word Philistia, and the Greek rendering of the name, palaistinei, gives us the modern name “Palestine.” The Philistines are first recorded in Scripture in the Table of Nations, a list of the patriarchal founders of seventy nations descended from Noah (Genesis 10:14). It is thought that the Philistines originated in Caphtor, the Hebrew name for the island of Crete and the whole Aegean region (Amos 9:7; Jeremiah 47:4). For unknown reasons, they migrated from that region to the Mediterranean coast near Gaza. Because of their maritime history, the Philistines are often associated with the “Sea Peoples.” The Bible records that the Philistines had contact with both Abraham and Isaac as early as 2000 B.C. (Genesis 21:32, 34; 26:1, 8).
    Last edited by vettor; 06-16-2021 at 06:01 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I would associate Canaanites with E-M123, being the autochthonous Afroasiatic speakers of the area, with J being more associated with Mesopotamia. But yes, this Salernitan's haplogroup is Phoenician in origin.
    As leorcooper19 said, by the time the Canaanites arose as separate ethnic group in the Levant, that is to say during the Middle Bronze Age, they are bound to have harboured a variety of haplogroups, the BA Canaanite data we have so far (from Israel, Jordan and Lebanon) is J-rich (and more specifically J1-rich). I however expect this to change from site to site, the region's most durable structure (not to say institution) is the tribe, in-keeping with this we should expect some sites to have been M123-rich, just like Baq'a (in Jordan) was almost entirely J-YSC76 and IBA Yehud was rich in J-M205 (and more to the point, with better resolution we'd probably find that Megiddo was rich in Y3081).

    On the other hand I also agree that E-M123 was the main agent behind the arrival of Afroasiatic speech to the area, in the form of what I like to call the "Semitic Parent Language" (SPL). I also agree that most of the J clades in the Levant are of ultimate Mesopotamian provenance, P58 in particular is extremely likely to have originated in Mesopotamia, however their arrival in the Levant predates the emergence of the Canaanite ethnos by millennia, indeed the most ancient J1 individual we know of in the Levant so far dates back to the Chalcolithic (see here), based on the context for this sample and P58's phylogeny the most likely timeframe for its arrival is the Pottery Neolithic period. So while J-P58 has no convincing AA associations, there can be no doubt at this stage that it was part and parcel of the Proto-Semitic speech community (and possibly a major element within it), this is the only explanation that accounts for the close correlation between its branches and Semitic dispersals:

     


    So Francesco's paternal ancestors are descended not only from the Phoenicians but also from the Canaanites, the Northwest, Central, West and finally Proto-Semites (and only before that, the Mesopotamian migrants who brought P58 to the Levant).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-17-2021 at 01:31 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  11. #16
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    @Agamemnon , do you think that J1-P58 is associated with Samarra culture and later Ubaidian and Sumerians? being rich with this Y-DNA? who would have settled southward gradually from what would be from northern Iraq all the way to Taurus mountains ?

    and later expanded rapidly during the Uruk period especially westward (levant) and eastern Arabia?

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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLMDG View Post
    @Agamemnon , do you think that J1-P58 is associated with Samarra culture and later Ubaidian and Sumerians? being rich with this Y-DNA? who would have settled southward gradually from what would be from northern Iraq all the way to Taurus mountains ?

    and later expanded rapidly during the Uruk period especially westward (levant) and eastern Arabia?
    The most likely scenario for P58 is that it originated in Pre-Pottery Neolithic Upper Mesopotamia and spread to the Levant with either Halaf or Ubaid (Tel Tsaf being something of a smoking gun if we choose the latter). The final phases of the PPN in the Levant saw serious demographic decline, no doubt following the abrupt aridification tied to the 8.2 kiloyear as the climate gradually "recovered" and became moister, an event which must have been part of the pull factor for those Mesopotamian migrants. We're probably talking about a small minority of intrusive migrants who must have had some sort of advantage, the arrival of those migrants coincides with the emergence of complex, organised and hierarchised societies of the type we will later see in Mesopotamia:

    "The origin of the people of the Chalcolithic period is still unclear. The main stream in Middle Eastern archaeology believes that part of the population of the Chalcolithic culture was local and it absorbed a new wave of people with their new culture. Some of the researchers note that there was a migration of people from the “north” (Mellaart, 1966; Govrin, 1991). Gophna (1983) also claimed that the Chalcolithic population entered the Levant from the north and brought with it a very developed and organized culture.
    Ussishkin (1986) suggested that, according to archaeological remains and skeletons’ structure, the Chalcolithic cultural bearers originated in the Caucasian Mountains of East Anatolia or the mountainous areas of Armenia. Other archaeologists accept the idea that the new Chalcolithic immigrants came from an unidentified “east” (Elliot, 1978), which could be Mesopotamia. Yet, not all archaeologists agree with the “north or east theory”; for example, Gonen (1992) suggested that natural and internal processes were responsible for the change from the small isolated local communities of the Neolithic period to the new social and economic system of the Chalcolithic period. The change in culture was in a response to the need to find a solution for the changing condition of the society and to ensure its continuation and succession.
    Whichever theory is correct, one still has to explain the reasons for the sudden rise, after several hundred years of decline, in the number of settlements, and the appearance of a new form of culture equipped with a new technology, for which there is no sign of a gradual evolution, as is the case in the invention of pottery. Issar (1990) favors the theory of the immigration of people from the north and explains it by a strong climatic change from warm and dry to cold and humid. This made the high plateaus of Anatolia, Iran and maybe even Central Asia less habitable, and it simultaneously caused the plains of the Middle East to flourish. This, as archaeological evidence shows, gave rise to an incredible increase in population density: a rise in the total numbers as well as an increase in community sizes and the range and rate of productivity in many economic areas.
    New activities included ceramic, metal, ivory and basalt industries. Levy (1986) suggested that the Chalcolithic economy indicated a development of production beyond the domestic circle and based on an increase in socioeconomic complexity, which involved the development of social ranking and hierarchies. Another characteristic feature of the Chalcolithic culture was the emergence of distinct regional cultures, with a high level of adaptation to the local environment (Levy, 1986).
    The population of the Chalcolithic period settled in Israel in planned farming communities in the Jordan valley, the coastal plain, the Judean desert and the northern and eastern Negev (Ussishkin, 1986). Sedentary village life was established during the Neolithic period, but the Chalcolithic cultural communities were larger and more advanced farming villages. These villages later became the pattern of the “modern” village in the Middle East."


    -Arie S. Issar, Climate Changes During the Holocene and Their Impact on Hydrological Systems (2003); p.16

    This is the model which best accounts for what we're seeing in the aDNA record (and I predict shall be confirmed in the near future). Somehow this group of migrants ended up having a disproportionate impact among the Proto-Semites, this could have something to do with the increase in population density mentioned above, though personally I suspect something else entirely is at play here (some sort of adaptation of subsistence strategies to deep desert environments perhaps).

    Also, while the Sumerians might have carried P58, I would not expect them to have had any of the major branches more commonly found today, let alone to have spread it around in any significant manner.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-17-2021 at 01:38 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  15. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by alchemist223 View Post
    Just wanted to update everyone that there is a new sample sharing Francesco's subclade, BY143137 from Amman, Jordan.
    Another update: this new sample has now formed a new subclade with Francesco, J-Y155708. This strongly suggests that Francesco's male ancestors arrived in Italy through a Phoenician migration.
    Last edited by alchemist223; 06-17-2021 at 05:56 PM.
    MDKA: Robert Boulay, b. 1631, RÚveillon, Orne, France
    Y-DNA: R1b-U152 > L2 > Z367 > Z34 > Z33 > BY164497> BY3604

    Maternal Y-DNA: J2a-M67 > Z1847 > Y4036 > Z467 > Z447> L210

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  17. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    While the kit is labeled as being from Jordan, this individual's paternal ancestors apparently came from Jaffa.
    YFULL do not allow Palestinians to choose their ancestral cities if they are in 1948 land, likely for political reasons, compromising the objective of their own site.

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