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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #5041
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    [1] "distance%=1.6372"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek:I8215

    Peloponnese_N,75.8
    Yamnaya_Samara,16.4
    CHG,4.2
    Levant_N,3.6

    [1] "distance%=2.5573"

    Iberia_Northeast_Hel:I8208

    Peloponnese_N,73.8
    Yamnaya_Samara,10
    CHG,9
    Levant_N,4.8
    Ganj_Dareh_N,2.4
    Could you please do a run with Yamnaya_Samara replaced by a more suited source?
    Ideally by Greece Neolithic I6423 (shown in the Maykop pre-release). Of course that sample is not available but as it plots close to modern day Croatians, the next best proxy. Simulating that aDNA sample of neolithic Greece would be a great, still Steppe-related, replacement for Yamnaya_Samara (which is too far away and may eat up too much CHG/Iran).

    Plus these Greek colonist samples from the Iberia paper are the first ancient Greek samples that are ultimately of mainland origin (which that unavailable Greece Neolithic sample is likely too).

    If that would be possible, I would be interested to see the CHG/Iran_N share of these Greek (mainland) colonist samples.

  2. #5042
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Considering the Colegno samples and then the results from recent paper released on the changing Admixture within Italian Peninsula regarding Rome & Latium imperial to late antiquity,I’ve been pondering something...
    I’m kinda picturing that prior to late antiquity prior to the Germanic invasions of Italy & Slavic invasions of Greece,back in the period of the 1st/2nd Century AD all of italy from Rome Downwards,South italy,Mainland Greece,Greek Islands the Aegean extending to Cyprus all plotted similar the way Aegean Greeks and Southern Italians plot Similar today.
    Basically that the average 1st/2nd Roman Citizens living in the Italian Peninsula and Greece would plot somewhere inbetween a Southern Italian and a Cypriot,but perhaps with many more people in the Calabrian genetic range than there is today.
    That being said if we propose the ancestor population that eventually became Ashkenazim were Italian jews from Rome,and knowing what Josephus says regarding the conversion of Roman citizens to Judaism before there later subsequent abandonment of Judaism for Christianity in a way pre Ashkenazi Italian jews could almost be seen as partly a pre Christian genetic remnant of a Judaism practicing mainly Roman Southern European population of the 1st/2nd Century Roman period.
    Don’t get me wrong I’m not proposing that the Roman Jewish relic ancestor population was completely made up of just converts to Judaism,I’m sure a fare bit of the Levantine Admixture would be genuinely Jewish but maybe less than the 30% proposed by Eric’s theory as some would be non Jewish from converts.
    As far as I know from second hand knowledge Ashkenazim Y dna is predominantly middle eastern and MtDNA is predominantly European,and as Eric once proposed before we don’t know how many or how many times and for how many generations the scenario of a fully Levantine Jewish male and his male descendants took Southern European wives over and over again before eventually becoming fairly endogamous and marrying just within community which would lower the Levantine Admixture and increase the Southern European Admixture whilst not altering the Y and MtDNA origins frequency in the long run.
    Yes, this is precisely what I and Aga have been proposing since Hannah Moot's talk last month.

    I find it difficult to accept that it was indeed only Imperial era Roman admixture and that Jews arrived as pristine Levantines to Rome for several reasons:

    None of the significant maternal lineages among Ashkenazi Jews derived from Italians. And the one that does, K1a1b1a is not necessarily Italian.

    First Jews to arrive Rome spoke Greek AND bore Hellenistic names. They even decorated their catacombs in Greek.

    It's obvious that all Western Jews derive from the same population, and given how Romaniote Jews, Musta'arabi Syrian Jews and non-Sephardi Maghreb Jews seem to also plot outside the Levant and appear to have East Mediterranean admixture, while at the same time the likelihood of them having any substantial Italian admixture is nil, makes me believe the Jews which arrived to Rome and became the primal ancestors to Ashkenazi Jews were already mixed.

    Of course, the fact that Imperial and Republican era Romans were Aegean-like, as well as classical West Anatolian Greeks as it now seems, makes the distinction between Imperial/Republican era Roman admixture and Hellenic admixture extremely difficult.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 03-15-2019 at 07:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    They should analyze the Griffin Warrior skeleton! Such differences with the aristocracy having higher Steppe were probably the case when Greece was first IE-ized, but by 400 BC I'm pretty sure we'd find no differences in Steppe among Greeks.

    [1] "distance%=2.2106"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek_I8215

    Balkans_IA_I5769,49.4
    Mycenaean_I9041,23
    Mycenaean_I9006,16.4
    Mycenaean_I9033,5.6
    Anatolia_MLBA_MA2200,5
    Levant_BA_North_ERS1790733,0.6

    [1] "distance%=3.5617"

    Iberia_Northeast_Hel_I8208

    Anatolia_MLBA_MA2200,41.2
    Mycenaean_I9033,19.8
    Portugal_MBA_TV32032,13.4
    Balkans_IA_I5769,11
    Mycenaean_I9010,7.8
    Mycenaean_I9006,6.8
    There was at one point a sample that was found on Crete (Crete_Armenoi) who was theorised to be a Greek princess due to her very high Steppe admixture and wealthy burial artefacts. Unfortunately she remained a mystery because the remains were of low quality and thus unreliable. She clustered with Albanians, Bulgarians and mainland Greeks; so quite northern as far as West Eurasian diversity is concerned. I am not of the opinion that the aristocracy of Europe have ever been enriched with a significant amount of Steppe ancestry in excess of the common folk, but I think the inbreeding and general nepotism observed among the upper classes facilitates an environment where the initial high levels of Steppe ancestry can be better maintained above the general population baseline.

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  6. #5044
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    There was at one point a sample that was found on Crete (Crete_Armenoi) who was theorised to be a Greek princess due to her very high Steppe admixture and wealthy burial artefacts. Unfortunately she remained a mystery because the remains were of low quality and thus unreliable. She clustered with Albanians, Bulgarians and mainland Greeks; so quite northern as far as West Eurasian diversity is concerned. I am not of the opinion that the aristocracy of Europe have ever been enriched with a significant amount of Steppe ancestry in excess of the common folk, but I think the inbreeding and general nepotism observed among the upper classes facilitates an environment where the initial high levels of Steppe ancestry can be better maintained above the general population baseline.
    The paper didn't specify her status. I9033 was from Peristeria which is a described as a wealthy burial, but it also says "alongside these imposing and richly furnished tombs that belonged to a ruling class, we have located about 100 m south of the above mentioned complex a small tholos tomb, the so-called South tholos tomb 1, which was used for burials of the settlement’s population" (where probably I9033 comes from). Don't know about Crete_Armenoi since this was not specified, as you said the low coverage shows in the results, I mean look at the percentage of Baltic and Red_Sea she scores, it's impossible to have someone looking like this.

    1 West_Med 26.42
    2 Atlantic 18.12
    3 West_Asian 14.39
    4 Baltic 14.14
    5 Red_Sea 13.92
    6 East_Med 6.29
    7 Eastern_Euro 3.35
    8 North_Sea 1.87
    9 Southeast_Asian 0.96
    10 Amerindian 0.53


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  8. #5045
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    [1] "distance%=1.685"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek:I8215

    Peloponnese_N,52.8
    Peloponnese_N_o,30.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,14
    Ukrainian,3


    [1] "distance%=2.31"

    Sorcelow_scaled

    Peloponnese_N_o,39.2
    Ukrainian,27
    Yamnaya_Samara,18
    Peloponnese_N,12
    Natufian,3.8


    I would like to see them uploaded on gedmatch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    Could you please do a run with Yamnaya_Samara replaced by a more suited source?
    Ideally by Greece Neolithic I6423 (shown in the Maykop pre-release). Of course that sample is not available but as it plots close to modern day Croatians, the next best proxy. Simulating that aDNA sample of neolithic Greece would be a great, still Steppe-related, replacement for Yamnaya_Samara (which is too far away and may eat up too much CHG/Iran).

    Plus these Greek colonist samples from the Iberia paper are the first ancient Greek samples that are ultimately of mainland origin (which that unavailable Greece Neolithic sample is likely too).

    If that would be possible, I would be interested to see the CHG/Iran_N share of these Greek (mainland) colonist samples.
    I disagree with the methodology of mixing modern references with the ancestral ones but here are the results. Croatian is nowhere near as Steppe rich as the likes of Sintashta_MLBA and Europe_LNBA so the CHG may be inflated as a result.

    [1] "distance%=1.8978"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek:I8215

    Peloponnese_N,64.8
    Croatian,23
    CHG,8.4
    Levant_N,3
    Ganj_Dareh_N,0.8

    [1] "distance%=2.4927"

    Iberia_Northeast_Hel:I8208

    Peloponnese_N,65.2
    Croatian,15.4
    CHG,10.4
    Levant_N,5.4
    Ganj_Dareh_N,3.6

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  12. #5047
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    These Mycenaean like Emporion samples trace their ancestry to the Greek colony of Phokaia in Anatolia. I wonder what mainland Greek samples were like during this period. I suspect 5-10% more steppe ancestry.

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    Its likely that the prevalence of y dna J amongst Greek speakers represents the aboriginal population that was conquered by the original Greek speaking r1a and r1b males from northern/eastern europe steppe. Consider that Greeks like the Spartans kept a large number of slave/serfs (e.g. Helots), its likely that the elite and aristocrats would have resembled the phenotype of northern populations. Also, considering that other indo Europeans tried to keep their elite pure (e.g. Brahmins forbidden from mixing with aboriginal populations), the philosophers (socrates, plato, Aristotle) of ancient Greece would be more similar phenotypically to northern/eastern Europeans. Its seems that the r1a/r1b y dna men were an elite minority while the ydna j men were kept as slaves and dancing boys. Until we see an elite grave with northern admixture I would hold out any hasty conclusions

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishKing View Post
    Its likely that the prevalence of y dna J amongst Greek speakers represents the aboriginal population that was conquered by the original Greek speaking r1a and r1b males from northern/eastern europe steppe. Consider that Greeks like the Spartans kept a large number of slave/serfs (e.g. Helots), its likely that the elite and aristocrats would have resembled the phenotype of northern populations. Also, considering that other indo Europeans tried to keep their elite pure (e.g. Brahmins forbidden from mixing with aboriginal populations), the philosophers (socrates, plato, Aristotle) of ancient Greece would be more similar phenotypically to northern/eastern Europeans. Its seems that the r1a/r1b y dna men were an elite minority while the ydna j men were kept as slaves and dancing boys. Until we see an elite grave with northern admixture I would hold out any hasty conclusions
    Is there something you want to tell us?

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  16. #5050
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    I think these models make a lot of sense. The fascinating aspect for me is the 6% variation in unadulterated Steppe admixture between these two samples alone. I would be very interested in seeing what the Greek aristocracy looked like during this period.

    [1] "distance%=2.8368"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek:I8215

    Mycenaean,93.8
    Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,6.2

    [1] "distance%=3.8988"

    Iberia_Northeast_Hel:I8208

    Mycenaean,81
    Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,19
    The distances in these models are kinda high so they might not mean too much considering that the Anatolian and Greek BA samples were quite similar in their general ancestry, all things considered, in the first place. The Classical and Hellenistic samples are generally within Mycenaean variation with the Classical one being slightly more northern and the Hellenistic one slightly more southern which shows in the different levels of Anatolia_EBA they get in your model. You can probably find more variation within a given modern region that's basically panmictic and we have very few samples to fill this region in the first place so it might just be natural variation than a trend.

    If there's one slight "outlier" within this group, as you've mentioned, it's I9033 which exhibits a little bit more steppe ancestry and perhaps I9010 which seems very steppe-deficient. Overall the population we have seems to take an intermediate position between the two.

    I don't think we can say anything more specific about these until we get both mainland and anatolian Greek samples but for the time being they portray a picture of general continuity from the MBA. I'd definitely be surprised if Greek colonists didn't pick up local ancestry in Anatolia since many of the Greek cities there show a proportion of local onomastics but it might also be that by Classical times both sides of the Aegean, whether Greek- or non-Greek-speaking in the latter, were broadly similar in the first place.

    The Crete_Armenoi sample was interesting as you mentioned but it's possible that its Tuscan-Greek-Albanian-like position was at least partially the result of the low coverage, seeing the weird results Brazorf shows as well. As a similar example, when Davidski first added MA2197/Anatolia_IA_low_res to Global25 its position was slightly different (more "northwestern") than when he re-added it.

    Original:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Greek Italian_Tuscan Albanian Italian_Bergamo Italian_Abruzzo Spanish_Baleares Spanish_Murcia Spanish_Andalucia
    5.582867 5.782341 5.805740 5.870936 6.166764 6.683789 6.759037 6.813862

    Re-added:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Greek Albanian Italian_Tuscan Italian_Abruzzo Italian_Bergamo Italian_South Sicilian_West Maltese
    5.285579 5.527561 5.551119 5.679039 5.891542 6.385631 6.628871 6.655134


    I'm personally not expecting the southern Balkans to differ much more than what we already have anyway, with even the one northern Thracian sample having relatively low steppe and even some of the early Vucedol samples being modern Greek-Albanian like. As you said before, Mycenaeans and similar relatively low-steppe ancient Balkan populations, alongside something like Avar_Hungary_Szolad for the northeastern part of the ancestry and something like the mixed-looking Collegno outliers for some Roman-era Near Eastern admixture, basically provide a good fit for all modern Balkan populations.


    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    I disagree with the methodology of mixing modern references with the ancestral ones but here are the results. Croatian is nowhere near as Steppe rich as the likes of Sintashta_MLBA and Europe_LNBA so the CHG may be inflated as a result.
    I agree and to add a bit, the specific sample he's referring to was only Croat/Hungarian-like on the PCA, i.e. much more shifted towards the EEF side of things. Of course that's still not necessarily a good idea since modern Croats have a lot of ancestry from a Baltic-like source that seems to share less drift with steppe populations than e.g. Scandinavians do (compare distances of northeast Europeans and Scandinavians to Steppe_EBA/MLBA in Global25, despite position along the first two dimensions) so the plotting might not reveal the full picture. Nevermind that we don't know the context of the sample at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishKing View Post
    Its likely that the prevalence of y dna J amongst Greek speakers represents the aboriginal population that was conquered by the original Greek speaking r1a and r1b males from northern/eastern europe steppe. Consider that Greeks like the Spartans kept a large number of slave/serfs (e.g. Helots), its likely that the elite and aristocrats would have resembled the phenotype of northern populations. Also, considering that other indo Europeans tried to keep their elite pure (e.g. Brahmins forbidden from mixing with aboriginal populations), the philosophers (socrates, plato, Aristotle) of ancient Greece would be more similar phenotypically to northern/eastern Europeans. Its seems that the r1a/r1b y dna men were an elite minority while the ydna j men were kept as slaves and dancing boys. Until we see an elite grave with northern admixture I would hold out any hasty conclusions
    From the same paper, we have a whole lot of Iberian samples (including some likely Celtic speakers) and we can see their steppe levels and we've even gotten Hallstatt samples that have less steppe ancestry than the modern French on average. Similarly every local sample we've gotten from the Balkans all the way to Pannonia so far is very EEF-heavy and not particularly heavy on the steppe. It was nice to have these delusions before we got aDNA but at this point, it's basically a marker of mental illness.

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