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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishKing View Post
    Its likely that the prevalence of y dna J amongst Greek speakers represents the aboriginal population that was conquered by the original Greek speaking r1a and r1b males from northern/eastern europe steppe. Consider that Greeks like the Spartans kept a large number of slave/serfs (e.g. Helots), its likely that the elite and aristocrats would have resembled the phenotype of northern populations. Also, considering that other indo Europeans tried to keep their elite pure (e.g. Brahmins forbidden from mixing with aboriginal populations), the philosophers (socrates, plato, Aristotle) of ancient Greece would be more similar phenotypically to northern/eastern Europeans. Its seems that the r1a/r1b y dna men were an elite minority while the ydna j men were kept as slaves and dancing boys. Until we see an elite grave with northern admixture I would hold out any hasty conclusions
    So basically you claim superior Northern Europeans ruled the swarthy, inferior Mediterranean aborigines and kept them as "slaves and dancing boys". Sieg Heil !


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    Until we keep see elite graves from hittite and Greek tombs we can't rush to any conclusions. We know that steppe invaders were a tiny minority compared to the aboriginal populations they ruled over.

    Its likely that modern day Greeks like George Papadopoulos reflect the aboriginal while the elite (philosophers, poets, musicians, lawmakers, etc.) resemble people from modern day Poland. Please put aside your Greek nationalism and view this in a scientific objective manner. The info european question is first and foremost a linguistic question and the linguistics is clear that the original Greek speakers arrived from eastern Europe

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    I have created an average from the two samples, I8208 and I8215 so we can use Classical Greeks (Classical West Anatolian Greeks to be exact) as a proxy.

    Well, for Romaniote Jews, this is what I got:

    [1] "distance%=2.5682"


    Romaniote_Jew


    Levant_BA_North,39.2
    Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average,33.4
    Mycenaean,20.2
    Mozabite,7.2

    For Sephardic Jews, I've also added Iberia_Northeast and the North Italian-like Collegno samples. This is what I got:

    [1] "distance%=1.9649"


    Sephardic_Jew


    Levant_BA_North,38.4
    Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average,36
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno,11.8
    Mozabite,7.6
    Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,6.2



    ^^ Mycenaean simply disappears into "Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average".

    [1] "distance%=1.9486"


    Ashkenazi_Jew


    Iberia_Northeast_Greek_15_8_Average,37.2
    Levant_BA_North,31.8
    Polish,9.2
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno,9
    Mozabite,6.8
    Lithuanian,6

    ^ I think East European is pretty inflated at ~15%.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishKing View Post
    Until we keep see elite graves from hittite and Greek tombs we can't rush to any conclusions. We know that steppe invaders were a tiny minority compared to the aboriginal populations they ruled over.

    Its likely that modern day Greeks like George Papadopoulos reflect the aboriginal while the elite (philosophers, poets, musicians, lawmakers, etc.) resemble people from modern day Poland. Please put aside your Greek nationalism and view this in a scientific objective manner. The info european question is first and foremost a linguistic question and the linguistics is clear that the original Greek speakers arrived from eastern Europe
    LMAO ! I am not a Greek nationalist, plus I wonder how scientific is the term "dancing boys" or ascribe a phenotype of modern day Northern Europeans to classical era Greeks is, considering modern day mainland Greeks are MORE Northern-shifted than their Mycenaean ancestors.

    Also, your comments show zero knowledge of Greek culture or social structure, which from the 5th century BC onward was democratic, and the positions you refer to as part of the "elite", ie poets, musicians etc. had nothing to do with royalty.

    Also, as someone who actually studied Classical Greek History 101 in university, there's no mention of any sort that archons in Athens were elected based on their phenotypes.

    You can take your Mein Kampf hate speech somewhere else, maybe look into Stormfront or another like-minded garbage website, they'll enjoy this pseudo-scientific BS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishKing View Post
    Consider that Greeks like the Spartans kept a large number of slave/serfs (e.g. Helots), its likely that the elite and aristocrats would have resembled the phenotype of northern populations. Also, considering that other indo Europeans tried to keep their elite pure (e.g. Brahmins forbidden from mixing with aboriginal populations), the philosophers (socrates, plato, Aristotle) of ancient Greece would be more similar phenotypically to northern/eastern Europeans. Its seems that the r1a/r1b y dna men were an elite minority while the ydna j men were kept as slaves and dancing boys. Until we see an elite grave with northern admixture I would hold out any hasty conclusions

    ...

    Until we keep see elite graves from hittite and Greek tombs we can't rush to any conclusions. We know that steppe invaders were a tiny minority compared to the aboriginal populations they ruled over.
    Anthropologist J. Lawrence Angel undertook what is perhaps the most ambitious morphological study of Greek material, looking at all periods for which he had data. He saw no evidence of significant morphological differences between elites and common people. Maybe in the early days of the Proto-Greeks we'll see some people who look exactly like Yamnaya show up in the record, but by the Mycenaean era (and certainly beyond), you're making a very unwise bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishKing View Post
    Its likely that modern day Greeks like George Papadopoulos reflect the aboriginal while the elite (philosophers, poets, musicians, lawmakers, etc.) resemble people from modern day Poland. Please put aside your Greek nationalism and view this in a scientific objective manner.
    That's rich. You parrot idiotic Nordicist ideas from centuries ago and have the audacity to tell others to put aside their biases?

    Thanks for the laugh, Northman. Be sure to thank those "dancing boys" for your civilization later.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Anthropologist J. Lawrence Angel undertook what is perhaps the most ambitious morphological study of Greek material, looking at all periods for which he had data. He saw no evidence of significant morphological differences between elites and common people. Maybe in the early days of the Proto-Greeks we'll see some people who look exactly like Yamnaya show up in the record, but by the Mycenaean era (and certainly beyond), you're making a very unwise bet.
    Since you bring up Angel (and a bit off-topic but everything in the service of making this the longest thread on this forum ever), you might recall that he saw two major times of significant change in Greece: one in the BA-EIA where he thought there was a simultaneous increase of eastern and northern admixture and one c. early medieval times, where he thought there was a similar northern/eastern increase. I'm of course a bit wary of those sorts of physical anthropological results considering some could be kinda off but I think based on the position of Mycenaeans/Emporians in comparison to Greece_N, with Peloponnese_N/Minoan intermediates exhibiting the eastern kind of ancestry, and the position of modern Greeks in comparison to Mycenaeans/Emporians and the general ancestral component differences those populations have with each other, he did pretty well, just going by the limited skeletal/cranial series he studied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishKing View Post
    Its likely that the prevalence of y dna J amongst Greek speakers represents the aboriginal population that was conquered by the original Greek speaking r1a and r1b males from northern/eastern europe steppe. Consider that Greeks like the Spartans kept a large number of slave/serfs (e.g. Helots), its likely that the elite and aristocrats would have resembled the phenotype of northern populations. Also, considering that other indo Europeans tried to keep their elite pure (e.g. Brahmins forbidden from mixing with aboriginal populations), the philosophers (socrates, plato, Aristotle) of ancient Greece would be more similar phenotypically to northern/eastern Europeans. Its seems that the r1a/r1b y dna men were an elite minority while the ydna j men were kept as slaves and dancing boys. Until we see an elite grave with northern admixture I would hold out any hasty conclusions.

    Until we keep see elite graves from hittite and Greek tombs we can't rush to any conclusions. We know that steppe invaders were a tiny minority compared to the aboriginal populations they ruled over. Its likely that modern day Greeks like George Papadopoulos reflect the aboriginal while the elite (philosophers, poets, musicians, lawmakers, etc.) resemble people from modern day Poland. Please put aside your Greek nationalism and view this in a scientific objective manner. The info european question is first and foremost a linguistic question and the linguistics is clear that the original Greek speakers arrived from eastern Europe
    Bullshit.

    1. Haplogroups are only a small part of your genome
    2. The Helots were IE-admixed just like the Spartans and the fact they were enslaved means nothing (the Romans for example enslaved basically all peoples they conquered)
    3. Not even modern mainland Greeks who received sizeable Slavic and Balkanic admixture in the Middle Ages are closer phenotypically to Northern and Eastern Europe
    4. The IEs that migrated to India encountered very different populations than those of pre-IE Greece
    5. I doubt that since the Indo-Europeans began to have an impact on the genetics of the Greeks, they remained as a "Nordic" elite for a thousand and more years starting from 1600 BC

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    Not sure where the hostility is coming from and I would recommend that calm prevail when discussing these matters. Accusations of neo-naziism are absurd. These matters must be discussed in non-beligerant fashion.

    The linguistics, archaelogy, and genetics is clear, men like Papdapulous represent the aboriginal population that originally spoke whatever language Minoan was. They however were made to speak Greek through an invasion (Doric) or kulturkugel (elite minority, as was kept over the hittites)

    Greek speaking Indo-Europeans tribes from the steppe (in EASTERN EUROPE) would have entered modern day Greece. In the Greek case, a billiard-like effect started with a Greek IE tribe Kulturkugel arriving from the north, entering modern day Greece, and immediately losing its "tip" (i.e. The Elite were steppic, while the common Minoans became Greek speaking). Once in Greece, the linguistic and social residue acquires a new cultural "tip" (e.g. aboriginal Y-Dna J Minoan descendants carried the Greek language outwards), that of the aboriginal Minoan population/culture itself ands spreads south.

    This MAINSTREAM model is, in effect, a rephrasing of what has been previously been described in 1988 in more general terms for other IE migrations (see Witzel 1998) : an immigrating civilization (i.e. Steppe Eastern European IE Speakers) joins the local one (Aboriginal Minoans), transforms it by taking on many of its aspects and then sets in move a recurrent, billiard-like spread of this innovative culture. In the end, no one at the start of the process may be genetically linked to anyone at the end of the process (i.e. the original elite Greek speakers were not related genetically on the whole to the aboriginal populations that came to speak Greek). (This is precisely what seems to have happened in the case of Indo-Europeanization of Greece, India, Iran, Anatolia, etc.).

    To sum up, in the words of MALLORY(1998: 194): "the mechanisms ... [of the] Kurgan model - mobility (both economic and social), increased reliance on stock breeding, opportunistic seizure of territories during agricultural system collapse, formation of defended centers, establishment of military or religious sodalities, that attracted non-IE membership, etc. -- have hardly been explored in detail."

    I have to attend to other matters but I will try to flesh out these arguments when I return. I stress, that the PIE question is first and foremost a question of Linguistics and Linguistic evidence clearly points to Eastern/Northern Europe as the origin of PIE (and therefore ultimately Greek).
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    Last edited by IrishKing; 03-15-2019 at 11:25 PM.

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    The hostility comes from your boring trolling, because that's what this is unless some sort of inability/mental deficiency to understand the data in question is involved, but that's precisely what everyone is saying: historical Greek speakers, which we now have data from, resembled the local population more than the steppe population. Already more northerly Bronze Age Balkan populations appear very mixed and mostly of local farmer ancestry to the extent that there's room to doubt that the proto or early Greek speakers would have necessarily been Steppe_MLBA-like (steppe Beaker itself has less steppe ancestry than that on average), considering the potential intermediate Balkan cultural associations.

    I think you should bother another thread since this one is mostly interesting and informative and you're rehashing known stuff in vague/erroneous ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishKing View Post
    Not sure where the hostility is coming from and I would recommend that calm prevail when discussing these matters. Accusations of neo-naziism are absurd. These matters must be discussed in non-beligerant fashion.

    The linguistics, archaelogy, and genetics is clear, men like Papdapulous represent the aboriginal population that originally spoke whatever language Minoan was. They however were made to speak Greek through an invasion (Doric) or kulturkugel (elite minority, as was kept over the hittites)

    Greek speaking Indo-Europeans tribes from the steppe (in EASTERN EUROPE) would have entered modern day Greece. In the Greek case, a billiard-like effect started with a Greek IE tribe Kulturkugel arriving from the north, entering modern day Greece, and immediately losing its "tip" (i.e. The Elite were steppic, while the common Minoans became Greek speaking). Once in Greece, the linguistic and social residue acquires a new cultural "tip" (e.g. aboriginal Y-Dna J Minoan descendants carried the Greek language outwards), that of the aboriginal Minoan population/culture itself ands spreads south.

    This MAINSTREAM model is, in effect, a rephrasing of what has been previously been described in 1988 in more general terms for other IE migrations (see Witzel 1998) : an immigrating civilization (i.e. Steppe Eastern European IE Speakers) joins the local one (Aboriginal Minoans), transforms it by taking on many of its aspects and then sets in move a recurrent, billiard-like spread of this innovative culture. In the end, no one at the start of the process may be genetically linked to anyone at the end of the process (i.e. the original elite Greek speakers were not related genetically on the whole to the aboriginal populations that came to speak Greek). (This is precisely what seems to have happened in the case of Indo-Europeanization of Greece, India, Iran, Anatolia, etc.).

    To sum up, in the words of MALLORY(1998: 194): "the mechanisms ... [of the] Kurgan model - mobility (both economic and social), increased reliance on stock breeding, opportunistic seizure of territories during agricultural system collapse, formation of defended centers, establishment of military or religious sodalities, that attracted non-IE membership, etc. -- have hardly been explored in detail."

    I have to attend to other matters but I will try to flesh out these arguments when I return. I stress, that the PIE question is first and foremost a question of Linguistics and Linguistic evidence clearly points to Eastern/Northern Europe as the origin of PIE (and therefore ultimately Greek).
    BS again, the Greeks we are seeing now are mixed with those IEs and are different from Minoans.

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