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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    It's interesting how the various Jewish groups today seem to owe their genesis to non-Jewish women be them of European, East Asian or West Asian persuasion.

    Does this not serve to undermine the matrilineal nature of Jewishness itself? I know that most modern Jews are secular and perhaps more liberal in their definition of who is and who is not a Jew but I can't imagine your religious leaders would be happy with this information.
    What is undermined by the current understanding of Jewish ethnogenesis isn't so much the matrilineal principle in itself but rather its antiquity. Typically, Jewish Orthodoxy traces this principle back to the Torah, the passage which is usually cited in its support is in Devarim (Deuteronomy), Chapter 7; verses 3-4:

    ג וְלֹא תִתְחַתֵּן בָּם: בִּתְּךָ לֹא-תִתֵּן לִבְנוֹ, וּבִתּוֹ לֹא-תִקַּח לִבְנֶךָ

    ד כִּי-יָסִיר אֶת-בִּנְךָ מֵאַחֲרַי, וְעָבְדוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים; וְחָרָה אַף-יְהוָה בָּכֶם, וְהִשְׁמִידְךָ מַהֵר


     
    3. [And] thou shalt not make marriages with them: thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

    4. For he will turn away thy son from following Me, that they may serve other gods; so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and He will destroy thee quickly.


    Less traditional rabbis point to Ezra's prohibition against intermarriage instead. If we are to take a more fact-based approach, these justifications are somewhat weak. Not only is all descent traced patrilineally in the TaNaKH, there are some passages that actually advocate against matrilineal descent (which is what the Karaites and the Samaritans use to justify patrilineal descent).

    More important in my opinion is the fact that by the first centuries CE, matrilineality is unheard of. Philo does not mention it and even calls children born to non-Jewish fathers "nothoi" (which echoes a later argument in the Talmud regarding whether the offspring of Jewish mothers and non-Jewish fathers are mamzerim). Josephus merrily assumes that the offspring of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is Jewish, and pays no attention whatsoever to the offspring of non-Jewish fathers. Just as telling are the popular attitudes of the time. The Herodian dynasty was widely viewed as a foreign one because it was of Idumean origin (along the paternal line), the fact that several Herodian rulers were born to Jewish mothers (including Mariamne, a Hasmonean princess) did not make them any more Jewish in the eyes of the people of Judea. It took the destruction of Judean society for the stigma of Idumean, Iturean and other non-Jewish pedigrees to disappear.

    The matrilineal principle appears in the Mishnah out of nowhere (the Damascus document explicitely advocates against such a concept, so the Essenes were equally unaware of it). The consensus amongst Jewish historians (especially those focusing on the early history of the diaspora) is that it dates to Tannaitic times, so during the first two centuries CE. When it appears, it is not fully developed. It seems that this principle originally was not designed to exclude, but rather to extend the transmission of Jewishness to women, it also drew from Roman law and the traditional Jewish conception of "kilayim". It was loosely applied until the Middle Ages, which is probably why Western Jews owe the vast majority of their maternal lineages to non-Levantine sources while the picture is reversed on the paternal side. Back during the early days of the diaspora, conversion was not the strict institution we see today in most Jewish communities, marriage sufficed (since all unions were religious).


    From that point on, patrilineal descent survived only amongst smaller Mosaic groups such as the Karaites, the Samaritans and some isolated Jewish communities (such as the Jews of the Caucasus). But the matrilineal principle should not be misunderstood, it does not mean that Jewish society is matriarchal, status in Judaism is firmly patrilineal despite the fact that biological entry is matrilineal.


    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Where I'm from, curiously, secular half-Jews with a Jewish father (and hence, surname) are on average more Jewish-identified than those with a Jewish mother.
    That has also been my experience quite frankly. Not dissing matrilineal Jews or anything, but generally if you have a more Jewish-sounding name you are more easily identifiable, and people who do not like Jews do not care much for the intricacies of halakhah. One theory as to why patrilineal Jews tend to identify more strongly with the Jewish side is that they do not take Jewishness for granted.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-12-2019 at 12:29 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    What is undermined by the current understanding of Jewish ethnogenesis isn't so much the matrilineal principle in itself but rather its antiquity. Typically, Jewish Orthodoxy traces this principle back to the Torah, the passage which is usually cited in its support is in Devarim (Deuteronomy), Chapter 7; verses 3-4:

    ג וְלֹא תִתְחַתֵּן בָּם: בִּתְּךָ לֹא-תִתֵּן לִבְנוֹ, וּבִתּוֹ לֹא-תִקַּח לִבְנֶךָ

    ד כִּי-יָסִיר אֶת-בִּנְךָ מֵאַחֲרַי, וְעָבְדוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים; וְחָרָה אַף-יְהוָה בָּכֶם, וְהִשְׁמִידְךָ מַהֵר


     
    3. [And] thou shalt not make marriages with them: thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

    4. For he will turn away thy son from following Me, that they may serve other gods; so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and He will destroy thee quickly.


    Less traditional rabbis point to Ezra's prohibition against intermarriage instead. If we are to take a more fact-based approach, these justifications are somewhat weak. Not only is all descent traced patrilineally in the TaNaKH, there are some passages that actually advocate against matrilineal descent (which is what the Karaites and the Samaritans use to justify patrilineal descent).

    More important in my opinion is the fact that by the first centuries CE, matrilineality is unheard of. Philo does not mention it and even calls children born to non-Jewish fathers "nothoi" (which echoes a later argument in the Talmud regarding whether the offspring of Jewish mothers and non-Jewish fathers are mamzerim). Josephus merrily assumes that the offspring of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is Jewish, and pays no attention whatsoever to the offspring of non-Jewish fathers. Just as telling are the popular attitudes of the time. The Herodian dynasty was widely viewed as a foreign one because it was of Idumean origin (along the paternal line), the fact that several Herodian rulers were born to Jewish mothers (including Mariamne, a Hasmonean princess) did not make them any more Jewish in the eyes of the people of Judea. It took the destruction of Judean society for the stigma of Idumean, Iturean and other non-Jewish pedigrees to disappear.

    The matrilineal principle appears in the Mishnah out of nowhere (the Damascus document explicitely advocates against such a concept, so the Essenes were equally unaware of it). The consensus amongst Jewish historians (especially those focusing on the early history of the diaspora) is that it dates to Tannaitic times, so during the first two centuries CE. When it appears, it is not fully developed. It seems that this principle originally was not designed to exclude, but rather to extend the transmission of Jewishness to women, it also drew from Roman law and the traditional Jewish conception of "kilayim". It was loosely applied until the Middle Ages, which is probably why Western Jews owe the vast majority of their maternal lineages to non-Levantine sources while the picture is reversed on the paternal side. Back during the early days of the diaspora, conversion was not the strict institution we see today in most Jewish communities, marriage sufficed (since all unions were religious).


    From that point on, patrilineal descent survived only amongst smaller Mosaic groups such as the Karaites, the Samaritans and some isolated Jewish communities (such as the Jews of the Caucasus). But the matrilineal principle should not be misunderstood, it does not mean that Jewish society is matriarchal, status in Judaism is firmly patrilineal despite the fact that biological entry is matrilineal.




    That has also been my experience quite frankly. Not dissing matrilineal Jews or anything, but generally if you have a more Jewish-sounding name you are more easily identifiable, and people who do not like Jews do not care much for the intricacies of halakhah. One theory as to why patrilineal Jews tend to identify more strongly with the Jewish side is that they do not take Jewishness for granted.
    Thanks for the detailed explanation.

    It appears to be a grey area but I imagine most Jews would accept someone of your ancestry which is the most constructive and logical course of action in my opinion. The move towards a concept of Jewishness that is independent of religious fundamentalism and more in line with genetic descent and ethnic identification is going to be paramount when taking into account high intermarriage rates and declining birthrates among the diaspora. It would be very unwise if an already tiny minority were to turn those like yourself away when you identify as Jewish and are seemingly committed to the continuation of the Jewish people and their legacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    It's interesting how the various Jewish groups today seem to owe their genesis to non-Jewish women be them of European, East Asian or West Asian persuasion.

    Does this not serve to undermine the matrilineal nature of Jewishness itself? I know that most modern Jews are secular and perhaps more liberal in their definition of who is and who is not a Jew but I can't imagine your religious leaders would be happy with this information.

    I have little to add to the scholarly reply of rabbi Aga but I'll just add that the transition to matrilineal-determined Jewishness rather than patrilineal one actually totally makes sense in a Jewish society that accepted mostly women converts, for the following reasons:

    1. It validates that no foreign (aka non-Jewish) religious influence enters the family or somehow influence the children, and given most of such foreign influence would come from non-Jewish women converts, it makes sense to enforce Jewishness through the mother.

    2. It recognized the situation de-facto - if the vast majority of converts were women, there is no real need to worry about the Jewishness of the men (that can be taken care of simply by educating against intermarriage in general, plus women back then were less likely to marry on their own and most marriages were arranged marriages).

    3. Back then there were no paternal tests or a certain way to know who's the father, but you can always know who's the mother, and so because most men were of Judean descent and thus Jewish anyhow, you'd want to make sure the woman is Jewish, so just decide that Jewishness would pass through the mother and get over with this.

    It should be noted though that I tend to agree with Aga that this decision was, just like the decision not to mix poultry and dairy (which again, is not forced in other mosaic religions such as Karaite Judaism or Samaritanism) was post Second Temple-era, most likely during the writing of the Mishna.

    The reason for this is that Karaite Jews, for example, seem to have once be 40% of the worldwide Jewry (back in the 9th century AD), and seem to follow, like the Samaritans, the patrilineal policy of Jewishness. The common thing between these two groups is that they both do not accept the authority of the Talmud. There's also a theory, though this cannot really be validated, that Karaite Judaism is a continuation of the 2nd Temple era Sadducees Jewish denomination, as opposed to Rabbinical Judaism which descend from the Pharisee Jewish denomination. So if indeed this is the case, it seems to again show that pre-disapora Judaism didn't follow the matrilineal method of determining one's Jewishness.

    Kevin Brook gives an analysis of Karaite genetics in his website, Khazaria.com:

    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/karaites.html

    Where he basically found that on the paternal lineages, Karaite Jews share the same subclades with Rabbinical Jews, showing again that probably before the split during early medieval era, this was one community. For example, my own subclade Q-M378, and more exactly - the Ashkenazi-specific Q-YP1035 was found in one the East European Karaite Jews in this study:

    "Sample N01, our Turkistani-East European Karaite with the Y-DNA haplogroup Q1b1a (Q-L245), matches mostly with Ashkenazi Jews. N01 belongs within the Ashkenazic cluster Q-Y2200 (Q1b1a1a1a), specifically to the subclade Q-YP1035 (Q1b1a1a1a2a2) that was also found in an Ashkenazic Jew with male-line roots from Ukraine."
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I have little to add to the scholarly reply of rabbi Aga but I'll just add that the transition to matrilineal-determined Jewishness rather than patrilineal one actually totally makes sense in a Jewish society that accepted mostly women converts, for the following reasons:

    1. It validates that no foreign (aka non-Jewish) religious influence enters the family or somehow influence the children, and given most of such foreign influence would come from non-Jewish women converts, it makes sense to enforce Jewishness through the mother.

    2. It recognized the situation de-facto - if the vast majority of converts were women, there is no real need to worry about the Jewishness of the men (that can be taken care of simply by educating against intermarriage in general, plus women back then were less likely to marry on their own and most marriages were arranged marriages).

    3. Back then there were no paternal tests or a certain way to know who's the father, but you can always know who's the mother, and so because most men were of Judean descent and thus Jewish anyhow, you'd want to make sure the woman is Jewish, so just decide that Jewishness would pass through the mother and get over with this.

    It should be noted though that I tend to agree with Aga that this decision was, just like the decision not to mix poultry and dairy (which again, is not forced in other mosaic religions such as Karaite Judaism or Samaritanism) was post Second Temple-era, most likely during the writing of the Mishna.

    The reason for this is that Karaite Jews, for example, seem to have once be 40% of the worldwide Jewry (back in the 9th century AD), and seem to follow, like the Samaritans, the patrilineal policy of Jewishness. The common thing between these two groups is that they both do not accept the authority of the Talmud. There's also a theory, though this cannot really be validated, that Karaite Judaism is a continuation of the 2nd Temple era Sadducees Jewish denomination, as opposed to Rabbinical Judaism which descend from the Pharisee Jewish denomination. So if indeed this is the case, it seems to again show that pre-disapora Judaism didn't follow the matrilineal method of determining one's Jewishness.

    Kevin Brook gives an analysis of Karaite genetics in his website, Khazaria.com:

    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/karaites.html

    Where he basically found that on the paternal lineages, Karaite Jews share the same subclades with Rabbinical Jews, showing again that probably before the split during early medieval era, this was one community. For example, my own subclade Q-M378, and more exactly - the Ashkenazi-specific Q-YP1035 was found in one the East European Karaite Jews in this study:

    "Sample N01, our Turkistani-East European Karaite with the Y-DNA haplogroup Q1b1a (Q-L245), matches mostly with Ashkenazi Jews. N01 belongs within the Ashkenazic cluster Q-Y2200 (Q1b1a1a1a), specifically to the subclade Q-YP1035 (Q1b1a1a1a2a2) that was also found in an Ashkenazic Jew with male-line roots from Ukraine."
    Hey Erik.
    Is there any chance you could post the Eurogenes K13 values of your 8 Romaniote samples?
    would like to see how there K13 scores compare to the Italkim samples.

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    [QUOTE=Erikl86;574107]I have little to add to the scholarly reply of rabbi Aga but I'll just add that the transition to matrilineal-determined Jewishness rather than patrilineal one actually totally makes sense in a Jewish society that accepted mostly women converts, for the following reasons:

    1. It validates that no foreign (aka non-Jewish) religious influence enters the family or somehow influence the children, and given most of such foreign influence would come from non-Jewish women converts, it makes sense to enforce Jewishness through the mother.

    2. It recognized the situation de-facto - if the vast majority of converts were women, there is no real need to worry about the Jewishness of the men (that can be taken care of simply by educating against intermarriage in general, plus women back then were less likely to marry on their own and most marriages were arranged marriages).

    3. Back then there were no paternal tests or a certain way to know who's the father, but you can always know who's the mother, and so because most men were of Judean descent and thus Jewish anyhow, you'd want to make sure the woman is Jewish, so just decide that Jewishness would pass through the mother and get over with this.

    It should be noted though that I tend to agree with Aga that this decision was, just like the decision not to mix poultry and dairy (which again, is not forced in other mosaic religions such as Karaite Judaism or Samaritanism) was post Second Temple-era, most likely during the writing of the Mishna.

    The reason for this is that Karaite Jews, for example, seem to have once be 40% of the worldwide Jewry (back in the 9th century AD), and seem to follow, like the Samaritans, the patrilineal policy of Jewishness. The common thing between these two groups is that they both do not accept the authority of the Talmud. There's also a theory, though this cannot really be validated, that Karaite Judaism is a continuation of the 2nd Temple era Sadducees Jewish denomination, as opposed to Rabbinical Judaism which descend from the Pharisee Jewish denomination. So if indeed this is the case, it seems to again show that pre-disapora Judaism didn't follow the matrilineal method of determining one's Jewishness.

    Kevin Brook gives an analysis of Karaite genetics in his website, Khazaria.com:

    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/karaites.html

    Where he basically found that on the paternal lineages, Karaite Jews share the same subclades with Rabbinical Jews, showing again that probably before the split during early medieval era, this was one community. For example, my own subclade Q-M378, and more exactly - the Ashkenazi-specific Q-YP1035 was found in one the East European Karaite Jews in this study:

    "Sample N01, our Turkistani-East European Karaite with the Y-DNA haplogroup Q1b1a (Q-L245), matches mostly with Ashkenazi Jews. N01 belongs within the Ashkenazic cluster Q-Y2200 (Q1b1a1a1a), specifically to the subclade Q-YP1035 (Q1b1a1a1a2a2) that was also found in an Ashkenazic Jew with male-line roots from Ukraine."[/QUO

    * Double Post
    Last edited by Claudio; 06-12-2019 at 10:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Hey Erik.
    Is there any chance you could post the Eurogenes K13 values of your 8 Romaniote samples?
    would like to see how there K13 scores compare to the Italkim samples.
    No problem (it's 7 Romaniote kits, not 8):

    RomanioteJew1:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 12.19 Pct
    Baltic 2.34 Pct
    West_Med 20.70 Pct
    West_Asian 15.94 Pct
    East_Med 38.48 Pct
    Red_Sea 6.41 Pct
    South_Asian 1.78 Pct
    East_Asian -
    Siberian 0.52 Pct
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 1.03 Pct
    Sub-Saharan 0.61 Pct


    RomanioteJew2:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 13.98 Pct
    Baltic 2.34 Pct
    West_Med 21.26 Pct
    West_Asian 15.51 Pct
    East_Med 34.01 Pct
    Red_Sea 8.79 Pct
    South_Asian -
    East_Asian 1.46 Pct
    Siberian 0.66 Pct
    Amerindian 0.20 Pct
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 0.86 Pct
    Sub-Saharan 0.94 Pct


    RomanioteJew3:




     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 12.48 Pct
    Baltic 2.63 Pct
    West_Med 18.21 Pct
    West_Asian 14.17 Pct
    East_Med 41.10 Pct
    Red_Sea 8.98 Pct
    South_Asian -
    East_Asian 1.33 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 1.08 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -


    RomanioteJew4:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 9.19 Pct
    Baltic 4.66 Pct
    West_Med 21.32 Pct
    West_Asian 9.78 Pct
    East_Med 41.50 Pct
    Red_Sea 10.98 Pct
    South_Asian 0.10 Pct
    East_Asian 0.66 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian 0.91 Pct
    Northeast_African 0.92 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -



    RomanioteJew5:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 7.91 Pct
    Baltic 5.75 Pct
    West_Med 20.64 Pct
    West_Asian 15.45 Pct
    East_Med 38.00 Pct
    Red_Sea 8.47 Pct
    South_Asian -
    East_Asian 0.66 Pct
    Siberian 0.11 Pct
    Amerindian -
    Oceanian 0.62 Pct
    Northeast_African 2.39 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -



    RomanioteJew6:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 9.70 Pct
    Baltic 4.27 Pct
    West_Med 17.98 Pct
    West_Asian 13.52 Pct
    East_Med 39.72 Pct
    Red_Sea 10.68 Pct
    South_Asian 0.26 Pct
    East_Asian -
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 1.15 Pct
    Oceanian 0.93 Pct
    Northeast_African 1.80 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -


    RomanioteJew7:

     
    Population
    North_Atlantic 10.62 Pct
    Baltic 2.60 Pct
    West_Med 17.19 Pct
    West_Asian 18.42 Pct
    East_Med 39.02 Pct
    Red_Sea 7.76 Pct
    South_Asian 1.23 Pct
    East_Asian 0.47 Pct
    Siberian -
    Amerindian 0.26 Pct
    Oceanian -
    Northeast_African 2.42 Pct
    Sub-Saharan -
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    It'd be hard to maintain the Khazar Narrative once Khazar remains are tested and show no actual affinity to Ashkenazi Jews without outing yourself as a conspiracy theorist.

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  17. #5769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adules View Post
    It'd be hard to maintain the Khazar Narrative once Khazar remains are tested and show no actual affinity to Ashkenazi Jews without outing yourself as a conspiracy theorist.
    I think Tatyana Tatarinova's latest update from a study that actually did examine aDNA from actual Khazar burials, brought to us by rozenfeld, and considering her gentle admission that "The hypothesis that the Khazars are the ancestors of the Ashkenazi was not confirmed", which while might sound mild and somewhat dodgy, should be taken in the context of her past collaboration with the "Khazarist" (or more precisely, "Levantine-deniar" regarding the Judean ancestry of contemporary Jews) Elhaik, pretty much says it all.

    Again, considering her past involvement with Elhaik et al. she should be applauded for maintaining her academic decency above ideology (which I assume, while perhaps erroneously, used to be in line with Elhaik's own views).
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

  18. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-12-2019),  Claudio (06-12-2019),  jonahst (06-12-2019),  josh w. (06-12-2019),  Power77 (06-13-2019),  Targum (06-12-2019),  Tomenable (06-13-2019)

  19. #5770
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    More on the issue of patrilineal vs. matrilineal determination of Jewishness. I've found a fascinating article based on documents discovered in the Cairo Genizah, revealing just how close Rabbinical-Karaite relations used to be, well into the 11th century (and according to Wikipedia's Hebrew article on Karaite Judaism, these close relations were somewhat maintained up until the 13th century), including, get this - regular marriages between the communities !

    https://www.academia.edu/1469989/B._..._2_2006._9_36_

    In light of this, and considering there is no documentation showing Karaites ever defined Jewishness matrilinealy, one cannot but wonder how flexible were Rabbinical Jews on that matter, as late as 700-900 years ago.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

  20. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (06-12-2019),  Andrewid (06-13-2019),  jonahst (06-13-2019),  Power77 (06-13-2019)

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