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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Yeah currently it is. From the look of it, my belief is that the whole of Italy was some sort of a buffer zone where the Eastern influences (aka CHG) and the Western influences (aka WHG) kind of fused into each other, so there was a cline, similar to the one you see between Iberians and modern North Italians. Later on, by the vast and extensive migration of Greeks into Southern Italy and Sicily, the population became totally East Mediterranean with Western shift.
    And then Slavs fucked up the genetic continuity on the mainland

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  3. #4082
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    Yeah it's only the mitogenome
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    So we won't be getting the Phoenician samples on Gedmatch?
    Haber found a Canaanite Lebanese sample. The sample was mainly Natufian with some Iranian I DK if it can find its way to Gedmatch. The origin of Phoenicans remains unresolved but the current view favors the Levant. I suspect I have some Phoenician lines since I have infrequently been misidentified as Lebanese Druze or Samaritan. Phoenicia extended into Samara.
    Last edited by josh w.; 12-06-2018 at 09:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
    Haber found a Canaanite Lebanese sample. The sample was mainly Natufian with some Iranian I DK if it can find its way to Gedmatch. The origin of Phoenicans remains unresolved but the current view favors the Levant. I suspect I have some Phoenician lines since I have infrequently been misidentified as Lebanese Druze or Samaritan. Phoenicia extended into Samara.
    The origin of the Phoenicians is Canaanite that's a fact, I don't think anyone disputes this. Their language, Phoenician is a Canaanite language and a sister language to Hebrew
    I can be certain of one thing, that I know nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    The origin of the Phoenicians is Canaanite that's a fact, I don't think anyone disputes this. Their language, Phoenician is a Canaanite language and a sister language to Hebrew
    That would be my view, but some hold to Persian Gulf origins. Those who know Hebrew would find the Phoenician alphabet quite familiar.
    Last edited by josh w.; 12-07-2018 at 12:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
    That would be my view, but some hold to Persian Gulf origins. Those who know Hebrew would find the Phoenician alphabet quite familiar.
    I think both Hebrews and Phoenicians were native Canaanites. Hebrews did not come from Mesopotamia, and Phoenicians did not come from the Persian Gulf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    The origin of the Phoenicians is Canaanite that's a fact, I don't think anyone disputes this. Their language, Phoenician is a Canaanite language and a sister language to Hebrew
    Phoenicia is literally Greek for Canaan:

    Much later, in the sixth century BC, Hecataeus of Miletus writes that Phoenicia was formerly called χναkhna, a name that Philo of Byblos later adopted into his mythology as his eponym for the Phoenicians: "Khna who was afterwards called Phoinix".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#Etymology

    That being said, while I agree that most Israelite ancestry is Canaanite, it doesn't negate the possibility of a founder "Hebrew" population from Upper Mesopotamia (Urfa in modern day Turkey) that first mixed with Arameans (Israelite matriarchs) and later Canaanites, who they intermixed with extensively and absorbed. In other words, the history isn't necessarily (or, in my opinion, likely) as simple as "Israelites were just native Canaanites."

    EDIT: I see that the origin myth for Phoenicians in the Persian Gulf (and near the Horn of Africa) are from later Greek writers, some of whom cite Persian sources.
    Last edited by jonahst; 12-07-2018 at 03:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Phoenicia is literally Greek for Canaan:

    Much later, in the sixth century BC, Hecataeus of Miletus writes that Phoenicia was formerly called χναkhna, a name that Philo of Byblos later adopted into his mythology as his eponym for the Phoenicians: "Khna who was afterwards called Phoinix".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#Etymology

    That being said, while I agree that most Israelite ancestry is Canaanite, it doesn't negate the possibility of a founder "Hebrew" population from Upper Mesopotamia (Urfa in modern day Turkey) that first mixed with Arameans (Israelite matriarchs) and later Canaanites, who they intermixed with extensively and absorbed. In other words, the history isn't necessarily (or, in my opinion, likely) as simple as "Israelites were just native Canaanites."

    I'm not familiar with the idea of Phoenicians originating in the Persian Gulf though...

    But if the Hebrew language is a Canaanite language then I don't see why we would assume partial Mesopotamian origins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Phoenicia is literally Greek for Canaan:

    Much later, in the sixth century BC, Hecataeus of Miletus writes that Phoenicia was formerly called χναkhna, a name that Philo of Byblos later adopted into his mythology as his eponym for the Phoenicians: "Khna who was afterwards called Phoinix".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#Etymology

    That being said, while I agree that most Israelite ancestry is Canaanite, it doesn't negate the possibility of a founder "Hebrew" population from Upper Mesopotamia (Urfa in modern day Turkey) that first mixed with Arameans (Israelite matriarchs) and later Canaanites, who they intermixed with extensively and absorbed. In other words, the history isn't necessarily (or, in my opinion, likely) as simple as "Israelites were just native Canaanites."

    I'm not familiar with the idea of Phoenicians originating in the Persian Gulf though...
    I think it’s more parsimonious to suggest that the Canaanites themselves had some distant Upper Mesopotamian ancestry (whether Bronze Age or earlier), and that the patriarchal stories reflect it, in the form of some composite echo. We know pretty clearly that the ancestry of people in the Levant became progressively more northern and eastern over the millennia... I mean, J alone (to say nothing of the emerging autosomal story)

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    The origin of the Phoenicians is Canaanite that's a fact, I don't think anyone disputes this. Their language, Phoenician is a Canaanite language and a sister language to Hebrew
    Phoenician is not a separate language from Hebrew, in fact they could both be described as mere dialects of a single Canaanite language. Dialectal variation within Canaanite follows a coast-inland pattern, with the dialects spoken inland (Edomite, Moabite, Ammonite, Hebrew) and the dialects spoken on the coast (Phoenician, Old Byblian, Ekronite-Ashdodite Philistine) forming two separate yet mutually-intelligible clusters. If you speak Hebrew, learning the ancient Canaanite alphabet and getting accustomed to the defective non-plene spelling is all that is required in order to understand most of the epigraphic material in Phoenician, the differences are few and easily recognisable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I think both Hebrews and Phoenicians were native Canaanites. Hebrews did not come from Mesopotamia, and Phoenicians did not come from the Persian Gulf.
    Traditions of ancestry from Mesopotamia might be grounded in the MBA IIA-B transition which saw the appearance in the highlands of Judea-Samaria of toponyms based on a pattern widespread in the areas associated with the Amorite kingdoms of ancient Syria (roughly Upper Mesopotamia and the Gozarto/Jazire region of Syria, these areas are tied to the Abrahamic narrative). This probably does not work for the Phoenicians though as the toponyms along the coast follow the older pattern.

    The Phoenicians could be viewed as a "relic" of the LBA Canaanite environment, tellingly the city-state institution that was common during the LBA throughout the Levant remained almost unchanged in Phoenicia (which never was a unified country) while all the other Canaanite successor states quickly morphed into powerful kingdoms with an ideology based on divine kinship.

    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    I think it’s more parsimonious to suggest that the Canaanites themselves had some distant Upper Mesopotamian ancestry (whether Bronze Age or earlier), and that the patriarchal stories reflect it, in the form of some composite echo. We know pretty clearly that the ancestry of people in the Levant became progressively more northern and eastern over the millennia... I mean, J alone (to say nothing of the emerging autosomal story)
    Exactly, to be fair though I'd be very surprised if J1-L862 and J2b1-M205 turned out to be absent from the Southern Levant during the Chalcolithic period.

    By the way, I'm posting my father's Euclidean map here (thanks Lukasz):



     

     
    1 Sicily_Caltanisetta 1,8299979
    2 German_Ashkenazy 1,8739107
    3 Sicily_Agrigento 1,8794942
    4 Romanian_Jew 1,9018268
    5 Sicily_Messina 1,9267166
    6 GR_Crete 1,9338147
    7 Poland_Ashkenazy 1,9434297
    8 France_Ashkenazy 1,9543986
    9 Sicily_Ragusa 1,9619419
    10 Sephardi_Bulgaria 1,9795255

    11 Italian_Jew 2,0039221
    12 Latvia_Ashkenazy 2,0187423
    13 Sicily_Palermo 2,0241509
    14 Sicily_Trapani 2,0389467
    15 Sicily_Katania 2,0663023
    16 IT_Calabria 2,0933595
    17 GR_Ikaria 2,1040039
    18 Belarus_Ashkenazy 2,1151509
    19 Sephardi_Turkey 2,1173495
    20 IT_Apulia 2,1579994
    21 Malta 2,2024333
    22 GR_Chios 2,2070327
    23 GR_Kythira 2,2574551
    24 IT_Campania 2,2924245
    25 Romaniote 2,3042549
    26 IT_Abruzzo 2,3416864
    27 GR_Cyclades 2,3876809
    28 GR_Kalymnos 2,4177339
    29 GR_Dodecanese 2,4234668
    30 GR_Andros 2,4761387
    31 Moroccan_Jew 2,5264055
    32 GR_Central 2,5522838
    33 Algerian_Jew 2,5750063
    34 GR_Peloponese 2,5782985
    35 GR_Eubea 2,5912641
    36 Tunisian_Jew 2,81968
    37 Syrian_Jew 2,8364924
    38 Cyprus 2,8555711
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 12-07-2018 at 02:16 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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