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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    I'm sorry. It's with 23andme.
    If 23andme gives 10-15 percent North African (?), this would mean something indeed and being very unusual. But I'm not sure you meant it that way? Or is it Ashkenazi plus North African make (which ratio?) make up 15 percent as a whole?

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    10% on what kind of calculator or testing service? Ashkenazim do appear to share some Berber ancestry with Sephardim, probably acquired during late antiquity (early diaspora times), but it shouldn't be that high. Doing some basic runs with G25 modern averages for Ashkenazim I get 3-5% Berber depending on the group, a bit higher (around 8%) for Eastern Sephardim (Turkish/Greek Jews), and much higher (15-17%) for North African Jews.

    For instance, here's a run using the components from Seabass' DIY Mediterranean Calc, minus Egyptian (slightly different results from above, but similar):

    Attachment 44543

    I suppose it could be an odd case of random inheritance, or perhaps also from Sephardic admixture. There are outliers of course.
    Hello,
    Sorry please, what is the code, the model for this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aben Aboo View Post
    Hello,
    Sorry please, what is the code, the model for this?
    It's simply Seabass' DIY Ancient Scaled Calc for Italians and Western Jews

    Here's another run for Western Jews using his other calculator, which I believe you've already seen. The "North African" percentages are similar if we use Canary_Islands_Guanche as a measure:

    western jewish averages - g25 - med and west asian.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    It's simply Seabass' DIY Ancient Scaled Calc for Italians and Western Jews

    Here's another run for Western Jews using his other calculator, which I believe you've already seen. The "North African" percentages are similar if we use Canary_Islands_Guanche as a measure:

    western jewish averages - g25 - med and west asian.jpg
    Oh all right, thank you, yes now i remember.
    Last edited by Aben Aboo; 05-04-2021 at 12:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    If 23andme gives 10-15 percent North African (?), this would mean something indeed and being very unusual. But I'm not sure you meant it that way? Or is it Ashkenazi plus North African make (which ratio?) make up 15 percent as a whole?
    What I mean is that if, for instance, a relative comes out 10% Ashkenazi, they are over 1% North African. It's consistent for all of us. My uncle's is like 20% of the Ashkenazi. Mine, closer to 10%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    What I mean is that if, for instance, a relative comes out 10% Ashkenazi, they are over 1% North African. It's consistent for all of us. My uncle's is like 20% of the Ashkenazi. Mine, closer to 10%.
    But again, what is the rest of their makeup/known ancestry? It's very difficult to put things into context and understand where this North African is coming from without having this information.

    I assume you all have real Ashkenazi ancestry, since this is coming from 23andme. I think the North African may indeed be correlated in that it is part of the Ashkenazi ancestry which got read separately from the rest. My sense is that in people with partial Jewish ancestry there is a greater tendency for the algorithms in commercial services (even 23andMe) to break down Jewish ancestry into more remote ancestral components which would normally be subsumed into, for example, an Ashkenazi category. That doesn't necessarily mean, though, that it reflects a hypothetical North African percentage which your fully Ashkenazi ancestor(s) would receive if they were to be tested. It is very rare in fully Ashkenazi individuals for commercial tests to pick up on that ancient Berber ancestry and read it separately from the rest of the Ashkenazi "package".

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    Oh, I apologize. The rest of that side is French, German and Colonial British. It's only with my Ashkenazi line. All other lines lack it. It came with the Ashkenazi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    What I mean is that if, for instance, a relative comes out 10% Ashkenazi, they are over 1% North African. It's consistent for all of us. My uncle's is like 20% of the Ashkenazi. Mine, closer to 10%.
    Ok, 1 percent, that's fairly low and can be explained either by problems of the algorithm, like passenger explained already, by minor Sephardic or other Jewish contributions, or simply by an unusual accumulation of that kind of ancestry. Very minor North African on 23andme being not that uncommon, even in Germans on the trace level usually. Its sometimes hard to tell whether its real or not. I would always try to trace back the segments in question to get a better impression of whether it could be real or not. Is it always the same segments, is it the same in the triangulated matches? That's what really matters.
    Some segments can change label depending on context, that's true even for Ashkenazi if its no safe segment. Then it can get assigned to Ashkenazi in a fully AJ person, English in an English, German in a German and Eastern European in a Pole. And you don't know for sure where it is from, if all those get a 100 percent of the regional ancestry. Yet its the same, usually smaller, segment. This just shows how the algorithm works with the smoothing effect, even for such rather better differentiated ancestries like AJ, NW and EE. Minor other contributions, which being not considered "safe segments" by the algorithm being swallowed and disappear in the majority ancestry. And its the right decision if the algorithm can't tell the assignment of a segment with any higher level of probability, let alone certainty.
    So that a 100 percent Ashkenazi person gets no very minor percentage is also no proof of anything, in my opinion, because AJ get smoothed out results as well.

    If the segment sticks at the higher and highest confidence levels and appears in other matches too, it might still not be real, but the algorithm definitely considered it real to put it that way. Usually, at least on 23andme, there is a reason for that decision. That might not tell you the ultimate source, but there is a connection between these two components in your relatives, whatever it may be, in which direction it might go. More likely is, if it sticks in relatives and at higher confidence, its non-Ashkenazi, but other Jewish in origin.
    Last edited by Riverman; 05-04-2021 at 09:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    It's simply Seabass' DIY Ancient Scaled Calc for Italians and Western Jews

    Here's another run for Western Jews using his other calculator, which I believe you've already seen. The "North African" percentages are similar if we use Canary_Islands_Guanche as a measure:

    western jewish averages - g25 - med and west asian.jpg
    Cleaning up a bit the reference populations to avoid some overfitting I think that it works decenty for Italians (I think that some overfitting happens when using the whole panel including levantines, egyptians and hellenic eating-up each other a bit, similar situation for early iberian and italic and for slav/baltic and germanic/scandinavian).
    Seabass1.png
    Seabass2.png
    Last edited by Northern Adriatic; 05-04-2021 at 10:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post
    Cleaning up a bit the reference populations to avoid some overfitting I think that it works decenty for Italians (I think that some overfitting happens when using the whole panel including levantines, egyptians and hellenic eating-up each other a bit, similar situation for early iberian and italic and for slav/baltic and germanic/scandinavian).
    Seabass1.png
    Seabass2.png
    I think that's not enough because it especially swallows Slavic and Celtic. Celtic is somehow in between Germanic and Italic, so that's hard to model, especially for Italians I guess, but Slavic is a must, especially for the North East.

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