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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #10521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Anyone know why on that North-South axis dimension the Samaritans are so far from Lebanese Christians? They are normally close to them, just a little more Southern shifted. Not understanding their behaviour using that dimension.

    That North-South dimension must be picking up something other than North African, since if that was the case Sephardic Jews should be higher north than the French and Ashkenazi Jews, as should the Moroccan Jews compared with the Tunisian/Libyan Jews. Just a thought.
    That and similar PCAs produced by Davidski were created to specifically show genetic drift and similarity between groups - so don't pay attention to north-south here, but more on the grouping. Samaritans are extremely drifted and isolated genetically, which would explain why they would cluster outside of all other groups. Additionally, I suspect that if we'd add Yemenite or other groups with substantial Levant_N admixture, the Samaritan cluster would show slight drift toward them, which exactly my point for a while here - Samaritans aren't pristine Bronze Age Levantines frozen in time, they have substantial South-shifting admixture, MOST likely from Arabian admixture.

    With all due respect to the literate talent of my forefathers who wrote 2 Kings, we should really believe ruthless genocidal emperors (no offense to our Assyrian members here - I love Assyrian history !) when they say something - more than to a book which the authors did not bother to take credit for:

    "the Samarians who had agreed with a hostile king ...I fought with them and decisively defeated them...carried off as spoil. 50 chariots for my royal force...the rest of them I settled in the midst of Assyria. ...The Tamudi, Ibadidi, Marsimani and Hayappa, who live in distant Arabia, in the desert, who knew neither overseer nor commander, who never brought tribute to any king--with the help of Ashshur my lord, I defeated them. I deported the rest of them. I settled them in Samaria/Samerina."

    — Sargon II
    Last edited by Erikl86; 11-18-2020 at 11:06 AM.
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  3. #10522
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkotl0327 View Post
    This is certainly very interesting news. I am trying to do some modeling to look into the western Jewish idea. The YDNA certainly looks Jewish, but I'm not sure about the mtDNA, H107. It has a 3200 ybp TMRCA and includes Balkans, Caucasians, Turks, Italians, and Levantines. I don't believe that any of these people are Jews, though I could be mistaken, seems like more of an Ottoman-like spread to me.

    What I have been able to look into so far is the historical aspect. We have to consider the fact that although this man has not been precisely dated, his historical dating is 300-500 CE. The Jewish fresco of Jonah I believe has been dated to 100-200 CE, notable for being one of the early frescos in this catacomb. Other frescos, especially those dated to 300 and later, include Christian motifs and even Jesus himself. Also, and I am still looking into this further, the other people in the catacomb do not appear to have Jewish ancestry, but I've only taken a brief look at this so far. Finally, at the time of this person's burial, people were being buried there with elaborate and clearly non-Jewish burial rituals, notable Christian figures were buried there, etc. I think that this person, religiously at least, was not Jewish, but likely Christian, a Christian with Jewish ancestry. My question would be whether he or his immediate ancestors went and converted to Christianity from the actual pre-Western Jewish founder population or whether he is simply a half Judean, half something Roman, which would be close to but not exactly comparable to the Western Jewish population. I will try to look further into this and the other people in the catacomb, but at first glance their haplogroups don't look Jewish and neither does H107.
    The Catacombs of Marcellinus and Peter were constructed and used from the 2nd to the early 5th century CE, so, R130 died latest at the 5th century CE - the 400s CE. If he died during the 4th century CE, it would have been quite possible that he was Jewish as during that early period Jews and Christians were still sometimes buried together in the same catacombs, and as opposed to the earlier purely Jewish catacombs, it's quite difficult to tell apart 3rd century Christian and Jewish burials in such catacombs (unless of course there are distinctively Jewish or Christian symbols or prayers mentioned there).
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  5. #10523
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    Quote Originally Posted by 23abc View Post
    As someone not familiar with the North African admixture in modern Western Jews, do you have great reason to believe it comes straight from an unmixed Berber source?
    I'm curious too about the Berber; I haven't seen such "high" amounts before; I have seen models with a few percent of Mozabite. Is this something that pops up in other models as well? I see that some suggest a Alexandrian or Cyrenaecan origin for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    That and similar PCAs produced by Davidski were created to specifically show genetic drift and similarity between groups - so don't pay attention to north-south here, but more on the grouping. Samaritans are extremely drifted and isolated genetically, which would explain why they would cluster outside of all other groups. Additionally, I suspect that if we'd add Yemenite or other groups with substantial Levant_N admixture, the Samaritan cluster would show slight drift toward them, which exactly my point for a while here - Samaritans aren't pristine Bronze Age Levantines frozen in time, they have substantial South-shifting admixture, MOST likely from Arabian admixture.

    With all due respect to the literate talent of my forefathers who wrote 2 Kings, we should really believe ruthless genocidal dictators (no offense to our Assyrian members here - I love Assyrian history !) when they say something - more than to a book which the authors did not bother to take credit for:

    "the Samarians who had agreed with a hostile king ...I fought with them and decisively defeated them...carried off as spoil. 50 chariots for my royal force...the rest of them I settled in the midst of Assyria. ...The Tamudi, Ibadidi, Marsimani and Hayappa, who live in distant Arabia, in the desert, who knew neither overseer nor commander, who never brought tribute to any king--with the help of Ashshur my lord, I defeated them. I deported the rest of them. I settled them in Samaria/Samerina."

    — Sargon II
    Well, Seabass's own G25 models does showcase this really which I consider to be great models for both BedouinA and Palestinian Muslims:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post703474

    And yes, according to Israel Epha'al, these tribes that you mentioned here were Arabs among others like Qedarites and so on(sorry but you got to buy this book to see):
    https://books.google.ae/books?id=0IJ...arites&f=false

    The Arab tribe, Thamud, were mentioned many times by both Greek and Roman histories, and the temple here that was built by the tribe of Thamud as well:
    https://twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1008721358593908737

    Also, the "lost" Arab tribe of Ad was also found in the Levant region of Jordan too, and they too had built a temple in their name:
    https://twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1004991511367479296
    Last edited by TheIncredibleHulk; 11-18-2020 at 10:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIncredibleHulk View Post
    Well, Seabass's own G25 models does showcase this really which I consider to be great models for both BedouinA and Palestinian Muslims:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post703474

    And yes, according to Israel Epha'al, these tribes that you mentioned here were Arabs among others like Qedarites and so on(sorry but you got to buy this book to see):
    https://books.google.ae/books?id=0IJ...arites&f=false

    The Arab tribe, Thamud, were mentioned many times by both Greek and Roman histories, and the temple here that was built by the tribe of Thamud as well:
    https://twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1008721358593908737

    Also, the "lost" Arab tribe of Ad was also found in the Levant region of Jordan too, and they too had built a temple in their name:
    https://twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1004991511367479296
    What samples have to do with Mesopotamia IA?Witch one exactly??

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  11. #10526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    What samples have to do with Mesopotamia IA?Witch one exactly??
    It's an average using the two IA Iranian samples Hasanlu and Hajji Firuz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    It's an average using the two IA Iranian samples Hasanlu and Hajji Firuz.
    Hmm interesting.So,this means Levantines pretty much received something like a Babylonian-Assyrian input in their autosomal right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    The Catacombs of Marcellinus and Peter were constructed and used from the 2nd to the early 5th century CE, so, R130 died latest at the 5th century CE - the 400s CE. If he died during the 4th century CE, it would have been quite possible that he was Jewish as during that early period Jews and Christians were still sometimes buried together in the same catacombs, and as opposed to the earlier purely Jewish catacombs, it's quite difficult to tell apart 3rd century Christian and Jewish burials in such catacombs (unless of course there are distinctively Jewish or Christian symbols or prayers mentioned there).
    Don’t know if Jews and Christians were still buried together centuries after the time of Christ but I’ll take your word for it. By the time of the death of R130 however, the Jewish motifs were century old and Jesus was being depicted there. That’s why it seems highly unlikely this remained a burial site for religious Jews.

    http://www.catacombsociety.org/jewis...stian-burials/
    Last edited by jkotl0327; 11-18-2020 at 09:19 PM.
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    Taking things a millennium later ... does anyone have any good, detailed references on Jewish population history in Rhodes? What was the nature/timing of Sephardi migration there? Did persecuted Southern Italian Jews go there too? And what’s the evidence for a possible Romaniote substrate? Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Taking things a millennium later ... does anyone have any good, detailed references on Jewish population history in Rhodes? What was the nature/timing of Sephardi migration there? Did persecuted Southern Italian Jews go there too? And what’s the evidence for a possible Romaniote substrate? Thanks.
    According to the Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World:

    Small numbers of Jews have lived in Rhodes since ancient times, but a significant community did not emerge until the Ottoman conquest of the island in 1522. Rhodes remained part of the Ottoman Empire until 1912, when Italy took possession of the island in the Turco-Italian War. In 1944, during World War II, the entire Jewish community was deported by the Nazis; only about 150 survived the concentration camps. A few Jews still live in Rhodes and maintain the synagogue building and museum.

    The Ottoman government, in the sixteenth century, encouraged Sephardic Jews to settle in Rhodes, and before long they outnumbered the native Romaniots. Sephardic customs and practices soon became the predominant element in the island’s Jewish culture, and Judeo-Spanish became the community’s language. The Jews lived in their own quarter in the old city of Rhodes. Several Christian travelers in the late sixteenth century commented on the conspicuous presence of Jews in the city. A traveler who passed through in 1621 estimated that its Jewish populace numbered two hundred. In the mid-eighteenth century, the chief rabbi, Ezra Malki, reported that the Jewish population had declined because of the poor economic conditions then prevailing. By the mid-nineteenth century, Rabbi Raphael Israel of Rhodes estimated that there were three hundred Jewish families in his community. In 1900 the Jewish leaders of Rhodes numbered the community at thirty-six hundred people. In 1935, the historian Abraham Galanté placed the Jewish population at five thousand.
    The Encyclopedia's entry on Rhodes is written by Marc Angel, who lists the following sources:

    Angel, Marc D. Foundations of Sephardic Spirituality: The Inner Life of Jews of the Ottoman Empire (Woodstock: Jewish Lights, 2006).

    ———. The Jews of Rhodes (New York: Sepher-Hermon Press, 1978).

    Menascé, Esther Fintz. Gli ebrei a Rodi (Milan: Guerini e Associati, 1992).

    Rhodes Jewish Museum. http://www.rhodesjewishmuseum.org/.
    Also, you have this page, which gives some more detail:

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...h-history-tour

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