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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    But if the Hebrew language is a Canaanite language then I don't see why we would assume partial Mesopotamian origins.
    Because it's the national narrative. I don't think this emerged from thin air. Also, later Jews repeatedly and consistently adopted the languages of their neighbors, from Aramaic and Greek to Yiddish and Ladino. So it's not uncharacteristic.

    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    I think it’s more parsimonious to suggest that the Canaanites themselves had some distant Upper Mesopotamian ancestry (whether Bronze Age or earlier), and that the patriarchal stories reflect it, in the form of some composite echo. We know pretty clearly that the ancestry of people in the Levant became progressively more northern and eastern over the millennia... I mean, J alone (to say nothing of the emerging autosomal story)
    True, but why do Israelites have this national narrative while other Canaanites (and specifically Phoenicians) do not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    1 Sicily_Caltanisetta 1,8299979
    2 German_Ashkenazy 1,8739107
    3 Sicily_Agrigento 1,8794942
    4 Romanian_Jew 1,9018268
    5 Sicily_Messina 1,9267166
    6 GR_Crete 1,9338147
    7 Poland_Ashkenazy 1,9434297
    8 France_Ashkenazy 1,9543986
    9 Sicily_Ragusa 1,9619419
    10 Sephardi_Bulgaria 1,9795255

    11 Italian_Jew 2,0039221
    12 Latvia_Ashkenazy 2,0187423
    13 Sicily_Palermo 2,0241509
    14 Sicily_Trapani 2,0389467
    15 Sicily_Katania 2,0663023
    16 IT_Calabria 2,0933595
    17 GR_Ikaria 2,1040039
    18 Belarus_Ashkenazy 2,1151509
    19 Sephardi_Turkey 2,1173495
    20 IT_Apulia 2,1579994
    21 Malta 2,2024333
    22 GR_Chios 2,2070327
    23 GR_Kythira 2,2574551
    24 IT_Campania 2,2924245
    25 Romaniote 2,3042549
    26 IT_Abruzzo 2,3416864
    27 GR_Cyclades 2,3876809
    28 GR_Kalymnos 2,4177339
    29 GR_Dodecanese 2,4234668
    30 GR_Andros 2,4761387
    31 Moroccan_Jew 2,5264055
    32 GR_Central 2,5522838
    33 Algerian_Jew 2,5750063
    34 GR_Peloponese 2,5782985
    35 GR_Eubea 2,5912641
    36 Tunisian_Jew 2,81968
    37 Syrian_Jew 2,8364924
    38 Cyprus 2,8555711

    What confuses me is why he gets Caltanissetta/Agrigento so high up and Malta much further down when those two populations are the main sources for Maltese ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Because it's the national narrative. I don't think this emerged from thin air. Also, later Jews repeatedly and consistently adopted the languages of their neighbors, from Aramaic and Greek to Yiddish and Ladino. So it's not uncharacteristic.

    True, but why do Israelites have this national narrative while other Canaanites (and specifically Phoenicians) do not?
    Why would we believe the Bible and Torah as historical sources? Exodus didn't happen either for instance. The story of Abraham and roots in Mesopotamia likely served as a good storyline to show how the Israelites traveled far and wide and overcame adversity to be able to settle in the promised land. Which is more inspirational, that or that they are the Phoenicians' monotheistic country cousins?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Why would we believe the Bible and Torah as historical sources? Exodus didn't happen either for instance. The story of Abraham and roots in Mesopotamia likely served as a good storyline to show how the Israelites traveled far and wide and overcame adversity to be able to settle in the promised land. Which is more inspirational, that or that they are the Phoenicians' monotheistic country cousins?
    Because they're ancient texts that preserve ancient traditions, whether or not the available evidence supports a literal interpretation (which is especially questionable since they're dense, poetic, and often ambiguous texts). Dismissing them is no more rational than believing them exclusively despite whatever archaeological evidence we do or don't have.

    I'm not sure the Biblical narrative is always all that inspiring... Israelites are said to descend from someone who stole his brother's birthright, and are consistently depicted as being whiny and disobedient.

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    Because the Bronze Age Canaanite city-states, and their direct Iron Age successors on the Lebanese coast, never developed a ‘national’ sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by josh w. View Post
    Haber found a Canaanite Lebanese sample. The sample was mainly Natufian with some Iranian I DK if it can find its way to Gedmatch. The origin of Phoenicans remains unresolved but the current view favors the Levant. I suspect I have some Phoenician lines since I have infrequently been misidentified as Lebanese Druze or Samaritan. Phoenicia extended into Samara.
    I agree with both what jonahst and Agamemnon wrote.

    While IMO the Old Testament shouldn't be taken literally, it's a very viable source of historical information - similar to the Iliad and the Odyssey, two epic poems by Homer which are pretty much legendary works, but contain a lot of circumstantial information about ancient Greece and even as far back as the Mycenaean period.

    As for the Canaanite samples from Haber et al., I've uploaded them to my own GEDmatch account. They are dated to roughly ~1750 BC.

    This is their GEDmatch #:

    Z005595 - ERS1790729

    Z227846 - ERS1790733

    Z647344 - ERS1790732

    Z967414 - ERS1790730


    And this is their puntDNAL K13 results:

    Kit Z005595:
     

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 West_Asia 34.6
    2 SW_Europe 33.28
    3 SW_Asia 29.05
    4 NE_Europe 3.07

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Lebanese_Christian 4.32
    2 Samaritan_Jew 4.93
    3 Lebanese_Druze 6.57
    4 Lebanese_Muslim 6.89
    5 Jordanian 7.39
    6 Syrian 7.58
    7 Cypriot 8.34
    8 Palestinian 9.19
    9 Assyrian 12.01
    10 Armenian 13.53
    11 Sephardic_Jew 15.82
    12 Turkish_Kayseri 16
    13 Egyptian_Copts 16.13
    14 Turkish_Trabzon 16.82
    15 Turkish 16.98
    16 Yemeni 18.32
    17 Egyptian 19.09
    18 Azerbaijan_Azeri 19.59
    19 Italian_Sicilian 19.84
    20 Ashkenazy_Jew 20.18




    Kit Z227846:
     

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 West_Asia 34.37
    2 SW_Europe 33.26
    3 SW_Asia 30.64
    4 NE_Europe 1.72

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Samaritan_Jew 3.35
    2 Lebanese_Christian 5.98
    3 Jordanian 7.77
    4 Lebanese_Druze 8.05
    5 Lebanese_Muslim 8.16
    6 Syrian 8.92
    7 Palestinian 9.07
    8 Cypriot 10.1
    9 Assyrian 13.17
    10 Armenian 14.85
    11 Egyptian_Copts 15.13
    12 Sephardic_Jew 17.27
    13 Yemeni 17.6
    14 Turkish_Kayseri 17.69
    15 Turkish_Trabzon 18.18
    16 Turkish 18.76
    17 Egyptian 18.79
    18 Azerbaijan_Azeri 21.15
    19 Italian_Sicilian 21.42
    20 Ashkenazy_Jew 21.82


    Kit Z647344:
     

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 SW_Europe 36.72
    2 SW_Asia 31.59
    3 West_Asia 31.45
    4 Americas 0.23

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Samaritan_Jew 6.42
    2 Lebanese_Christian 9.64
    3 Jordanian 10.36
    4 Cypriot 11.33
    5 Palestinian 11.62
    6 Lebanese_Druze 11.77
    7 Lebanese_Muslim 12
    8 Syrian 12.28
    9 Egyptian_Copts 14.75
    10 Assyrian 17.15
    11 Sephardic_Jew 17.21
    12 Armenian 18.61
    13 Egyptian 19.29
    14 Yemeni 19.92
    15 Turkish_Kayseri 20.74
    16 Turkish_Trabzon 21.04
    17 Italian_Sicilian 21.48
    18 Turkish 21.55
    19 Ashkenazy_Jew 22.17
    20 Azerbaijan_Azeri 24.73


    Kit Z967414:
     
    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 SW_Europe 35.8
    2 West_Asia 35.19
    3 SW_Asia 28.61
    4 NE_Europe 0.4

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Samaritan_Jew 6.13
    2 Lebanese_Christian 6.78
    3 Lebanese_Druze 8.65
    4 Cypriot 8.81
    5 Lebanese_Muslim 9.04
    6 Syrian 9.88
    7 Jordanian 9.98
    8 Palestinian 11.64
    9 Assyrian 12.98
    10 Armenian 14.31
    11 Turkish_Trabzon 16.6
    12 Sephardic_Jew 17.05
    13 Egyptian_Copts 17.35
    14 Turkish_Kayseri 17.72
    15 Turkish 18.9
    16 Yemeni 20.3
    17 Egyptian 20.39
    18 Italian_Sicilian 20.87
    19 Azerbaijan_Azeri 21.12
    20 Ashkenazy_Jew 21.45
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post

    True, but why do Israelites have this national narrative while other Canaanites (and specifically Phoenicians) do not?
    without getting into a polemic but since we are already in hanukka period, many scholars connect your so called 'national narrative' to Hasmoneans. All the creation and promotion of national identities or narratives in history can be linked to a ruling elite that wants to justify its rule in the eyes of the people. Nevertheless, if Jews wouldn't move to diaspora, their fate would have been like the Samaritans.
    Last edited by eolien; 12-07-2018 at 01:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    without getting into a polemic but since we are already in hanukka period, many scholars connect your so called 'national narrative' to Hasmoneans. All the creation and promotion of national identities or narratives in history can be linked to a ruling elite that wants to justify its rule in the eyes of the people. Nevertheless, if Jews wouldn't move to diaspora, their fate would have been like the Samaritans.
    Yes, the Old Testament chapters beyond the Torah reflect a Judean perspective. However, I regard the whole Testament as a political statement even if some of it is factual.

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    Actually, there is something there linguistically. Yes, it is true that Hebrew squarely fits into the Canaanite Language group. However, it has a unique status as the most Aramaic influenced language in the group. I am not talking, either, about later Jewish Aramaic. Hebrew itself has an Aramaic influence which, anecdotally, in the way Erik suggests, is a historical nuance derived from the Torah narrative. Specifically the intermediate origin-point of the Abrahamic tribe in Haran, which is right in the heartland of Aram-Naharayyim, is consistent with how Hebrew differs from the rest of the group, and from the Ugaritic-like proto-Canaanite.
    !שבת שלום ומבורך וחנוכה שמח
    Shabbat Shalom uMevorakh veHhanukkah Sameahh
    Last edited by Targum; 12-07-2018 at 08:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Targum View Post
    Actually, there is something there linguistically. Yes, it is true that Hebrew squarely fits into the Canaanite Language group. However, it has a unique status as the most Aramaic influenced language in the group. I am not talking, either, about later Jewish Aramaic. Hebrew itself has an Aramaic influence which, anecdotally, in the way Erik suggests, is a historical nuance derived from the Torah narrative. Specifically the intermediate origin-point of the Abrahamic tribe in Haran, which is right in the heartland of Aram-Naharayyim, is consistent with how Hebrew differs from the rest of the group, and from the Ugaritic-like proto-Canaanite.
    !שבת שלום ומבורך וחנוכה שמח
    Shabbat Shalom uMevorakh veHhanukkah Sameahh
    Clearly there was an Eastern Middle East presence in the Levant at the time of the Phoenician and Hebrew peoples. Lebanese Canaanites and Chalcolithic samples in the Galilee show this presence. It is found in all European Jewish samples as well as in Mizrachi Middle Eastern samples It appears that Genesis was influenced by the Gilgamesh. However, did monotheism come from Mesopotamia or from the Bedouin Shosu.
    Last edited by josh w.; 12-08-2018 at 12:54 AM.

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