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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #4161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I considered the possibility, and still believe it is possible for the pre-Greek people of Sicily to have been genetically similar to Aegean people of the same period, but I do obviously believe all southern Italians (i.e. people who aren't ethnic minorities there) have some degree of Greek ancestry as well as some degree of Italic, Levantine, and for Sicily, North African also. This is not up for debate though we may disagree on the specific amounts.
    Yes, and while we disagree on that part that still doesn't matter one bit, as I've said before, to the Hellenic-like predominant component that all three populations - South Italians (Sicilians and Maltese incl.), Aegean Greeks (Cypriots incl. IMO) and Western Jews - seem to share. The fact that the first Jewish communities in Italy spoke Greek, had Greek names and that generally Jews migrated to Italy from the East Mediterranean, with major Hellenistic cities also harboring big Hellenistic Jewish communities, makes it far more likely that this Hellenic admixture was absorbed in the East Mediterranean, regardless if South Italians and Sicilians were pretty much identical to Greeks genetically to begin with or not.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 12-11-2018 at 07:59 AM.
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  3. #4162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Yes, and while we disagree on that part that still doesn't matter one bit, as I've said before, to the Hellenic-like predominant component that all three populations - South Italians (Sicilians and Maltese incl.), Aegean Greeks (Cypriots incl. IMO) and Western Jews - seem to share. The fact that the first Jewish communities in Italy spoke Greek, had Greek names and that generally Jews migrated to Italy from the East Mediterranean, with major Hellenistic cities also harboring big Hellenistic Jewish communities, makes it far more likely that this Hellenic admixture was absorbed in the East Mediterranean, regardless if South Italians and Sicilians were pretty much identical to Greeks genetically to begin with or not.
    The issue is we still do not know what the Greeks in Sicily and southern Italy were like genetically, or which modern population we can best proxy them with. We don't even know if they were all from Greece itself, or from satellite states and were mixed with the natives of those regions.

    Y-dna shows us that southeastern Sicily (Enna down to Ragusa) has y-dna in common with Euboea and Peloponnese, but this is statistically insignificant in west Sicily or Calabria, which means their Greek origins cannot be from those regions and likely not any part of the mainland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    The issue is we still do not know what the Greeks in Sicily and southern Italy were like genetically, or which modern population we can best proxy them with. We don't even know if they were all from Greece itself, or from satellite states and were mixed with the natives of those regions.

    Y-dna shows us that southeastern Sicily (Enna down to Ragusa) has y-dna in common with Euboea and Peloponnese, but this is statistically insignificant in west Sicily or Calabria, which means their Greek origins cannot be from those regions and likely not any part of the mainland.
    All true, but again, irrelevant in the sense that South Italians (from now on - always incl. Sicilians and Maltese) cluster with Aegean Greeks (and share paternal uniparentals with them), Aegean Greeks cluster with South Italians, and all Western Jews cluster with both.

    Let's assume one second you are correct - pre-Greek South Italians were genetically virtually almost identical to Mycenaeans, and thus the amount of actual Greeks which have settled in Italy is not that significant, with them only bringing their Hellenic identity and language and Hellenizing the locals. Still, Western Jews seem to cluster with both of these populations. Considering Jews over the ages moved from the East Mediterranean coast - their ancestral homeland and the origin of Judaism itself - to the West Mediterranean coasts, and came to Italy speaking Greek and using Greek names, and you have older archaeological evidence of Jewish communities in Asia Minor and Greece accepting gentile Hellenic people into their communities (and you also have extensive historical documentation of this), then obviously the Hellenic component entered in the East Mediterranean, from Hellenic people and not just from absorbing "genetically similar to Greeks but non-Greek just Hellenized" South Italians.
    Last edited by Erikl86; 12-11-2018 at 01:28 PM.
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  6. #4164
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    We can just create an unofficial one and stick all mixed Greeks on there, I cluster with Tuscan's myself but will probably chuck myself on for the laugh. It's going to be a long road securing these Aegean samples, but I feel they're desperately needed for complete representation of Greeks in the Global 25 - not to mention modelling will be a lot more fun with them on. I would take the leap as soon as possible and get your personal coordinates, you wont regret it.
    Lol, sure, I'm game. I took your advice and bit the bullet. Funnily enough, my father is so damn Aegean that even though I'm half-northern Euro, I still end up plotting amongst Greeks on the PCA. Mainland Greeks, of course:

     


    Univariate correlation says I'm closest to Tuscans, which is no surprise:

    Code:
    Italian_Tuscan:NA20508	0.99324
    Italian_Tuscan:NA20502	0.98852
    Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19	0.98655
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP13	0.98626
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP8	0.98594
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP11	0.98565
    Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo15	0.98561
    Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo16	0.98389
    Slavo-Macedonian:Macedonian8	0.98381
    Italian_South:ITS7	0.98368
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL23	0.98298
    Greek:S_Greek-1	0.98249
    Italian_Tuscan:NA20506	0.98234
    Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01152	0.98211
    Turkish_Istanbul:Istanbul25098	0.98204
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian10H	0.98197
    Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01147	0.98191
    Italian_Bergamo:S_Bergamo-1	0.98092
    Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo23	0.98061
    Anyway, I also sent my mom's genotype data to Dave (she's of Northern European descent). She's definitely got a continental pull which I expected given her known German ancestry.

    Anyhow, through some kind of wizardry, DMXX was able to create a simulation of my absent Greek father's genome using my G25 coordinates:

     


    This dummy sample plots exactly where you'd expect someone from Karpathos would cluster. I'm very impressed.

    Univariate correlation for dummy dad genome:

    Code:
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew7	0.99144
    Cypriot:Cyprus13AJ19	0.98911
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL30	0.98536
    Ashkenazi_Jew:ashkenazy3e	0.98533
    Cypriot:Cyprus22AJ19	0.98472
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew6	0.98471
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10	0.98435
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote5	0.98375
    Greek_Crete:NA17376	0.9837
    Ashkenazi_Jew:ashkenazy4w	0.98338
    Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24032	0.98326
    Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24392	0.98308
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote6	0.98306
    Maltese:Malta2AM91	0.98302
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote1	0.98277
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote2	0.98192
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL38	0.98188
    Ashkenazi_Jew:ashkenazy3w	0.98167
    Greek_Crete:B_Crete-2	0.98137
    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    Off topic, but do you have any more deeper information regarding your particular J2a1? It looks as though we may share the same paternal line.
    I'm not a haplogroup anorak by any means so I really don't know much about it. Apparently L26 is the same type of J2a found in the Mycenaean male. I tried looking deeper into it, but those haplogroup trees make my head spin. I really don't know how the R1b crowd is able to memorize those insanely detailed lineages. Gives me a headache just thinking about it. I recognize the importance of uniparentals, but I've always been more interested in genome-wide ancestry personally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Lol, sure, I'm game. I took your advice and bit the bullet. Funnily enough, my father is so damn Aegean that even though I'm half-northern Euro, I still end up plotting amongst Greeks on the PCA. Mainland Greeks, of course:

     


    Univariate correlation says I'm closest to Tuscans, which is no surprise:

    Code:
    Italian_Tuscan:NA20508	0.99324
    Italian_Tuscan:NA20502	0.98852
    Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19	0.98655
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP13	0.98626
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP8	0.98594
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP11	0.98565
    Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo15	0.98561
    Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo16	0.98389
    Slavo-Macedonian:Macedonian8	0.98381
    Italian_South:ITS7	0.98368
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL23	0.98298
    Greek:S_Greek-1	0.98249
    Italian_Tuscan:NA20506	0.98234
    Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01152	0.98211
    Turkish_Istanbul:Istanbul25098	0.98204
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian10H	0.98197
    Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01147	0.98191
    Italian_Bergamo:S_Bergamo-1	0.98092
    Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo23	0.98061
    Anyway, I also sent my mom's genotype data to Dave (she's of Northern European descent). She's definitely got a continental pull which I expected given her known German ancestry.

    Anyhow, through some kind of wizardry, DMXX was able to create a simulation of my absent Greek father's genome using my G25 coordinates:

     


    This dummy sample plots exactly where you'd expect someone from Karpathos would cluster. I'm very impressed.

    Univariate correlation for dummy dad genome:

    Code:
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew7	0.99144
    Cypriot:Cyprus13AJ19	0.98911
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL30	0.98536
    Ashkenazi_Jew:ashkenazy3e	0.98533
    Cypriot:Cyprus22AJ19	0.98472
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew6	0.98471
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10	0.98435
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote5	0.98375
    Greek_Crete:NA17376	0.9837
    Ashkenazi_Jew:ashkenazy4w	0.98338
    Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24032	0.98326
    Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24392	0.98308
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote6	0.98306
    Maltese:Malta2AM91	0.98302
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote1	0.98277
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote2	0.98192
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL38	0.98188
    Ashkenazi_Jew:ashkenazy3w	0.98167
    Greek_Crete:B_Crete-2	0.98137


    I'm not a haplogroup anorak by any means so I really don't know much about it. Apparently L26 is the same type of J2a found in the Mycenaean male. I tried looking deeper into it, but those haplogroup trees make my head spin. I really don't know how the R1b crowd is able to memorize those insanely detailed lineages. Gives me a headache just thinking about it. I recognize the importance of uniparentals, but I've always been more interested in genome-wide ancestry personally.
    Awesome. Stuff like this is why I try to tell people who are searching for missing ancestors that DNA testing can be worth it, and that the ready-made, shallow commercial results aren't the end product of a search.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Lol, sure, I'm game. I took your advice and bit the bullet. Funnily enough, my father is so damn Aegean that even though I'm half-northern Euro, I still end up plotting amongst Greeks on the PCA. Mainland Greeks, of course:

     


    Univariate correlation says I'm closest to Tuscans, which is no surprise:

    Code:
    Italian_Tuscan:NA20508	0.99324
    Italian_Tuscan:NA20502	0.98852
    Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19	0.98655
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP13	0.98626
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP8	0.98594
    Greek:GREEKGRALPOP11	0.98565
    Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo15	0.98561
    Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo16	0.98389
    Slavo-Macedonian:Macedonian8	0.98381
    Italian_South:ITS7	0.98368
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL23	0.98298
    Greek:S_Greek-1	0.98249
    Italian_Tuscan:NA20506	0.98234
    Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01152	0.98211
    Turkish_Istanbul:Istanbul25098	0.98204
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian10H	0.98197
    Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01147	0.98191
    Italian_Bergamo:S_Bergamo-1	0.98092
    Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo23	0.98061
    Anyway, I also sent my mom's genotype data to Dave (she's of Northern European descent). She's definitely got a continental pull which I expected given her known German ancestry.

    Anyhow, through some kind of wizardry, DMXX was able to create a simulation of my absent Greek father's genome using my G25 coordinates:

     


    This dummy sample plots exactly where you'd expect someone from Karpathos would cluster. I'm very impressed.

    Univariate correlation for dummy dad genome:

    Code:
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew7	0.99144
    Cypriot:Cyprus13AJ19	0.98911
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL30	0.98536
    Ashkenazi_Jew:ashkenazy3e	0.98533
    Cypriot:Cyprus22AJ19	0.98472
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew6	0.98471
    Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10	0.98435
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote5	0.98375
    Greek_Crete:NA17376	0.9837
    Ashkenazi_Jew:ashkenazy4w	0.98338
    Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24032	0.98326
    Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24392	0.98308
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote6	0.98306
    Maltese:Malta2AM91	0.98302
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote1	0.98277
    Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote2	0.98192
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL38	0.98188
    Ashkenazi_Jew:ashkenazy3w	0.98167
    Greek_Crete:B_Crete-2	0.98137


    I'm not a haplogroup anorak by any means so I really don't know much about it. Apparently L26 is the same type of J2a found in the Mycenaean male. I tried looking deeper into it, but those haplogroup trees make my head spin. I really don't know how the R1b crowd is able to memorize those insanely detailed lineages. Gives me a headache just thinking about it. I recognize the importance of uniparentals, but I've always been more interested in genome-wide ancestry personally.
    This is quite awesome - also I notice the fact that this "dummy" Karpathos sample clusters so well with Western Jews but relatively away from South Italians and Sicilians.
    Check out my Hidden Content
    My Y-DNA: Q-M242 -> Q-L232 -> Q-L275 -> Q-M378 -> Q-Y2016 -> Q-L245 -> Q-FGC1904 -> Q-Y2209 -> Q-Y2225 -> Q-Y2197 -> Q-Y2750 -> Q-YP1004 -> Q-YP3924;
    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    This is quite awesome - also I notice the fact that this "dummy" Karpathos sample clusters so well with Western Jews but relatively away from South Italians and Sicilians.
    I don't have any actual Karpathos samples but the ones I do have from Kalymnos and Rhodes are close to both Southern Italian and Ashkenazi/Sephardi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I don't have any actual Karpathos samples but the ones I do have from Kalymnos and Rhodes are close to both Southern Italian and Ashkenazi/Sephardi.
    Hopefully someday Dr Stefania Sarno would release the samples she used and then we'll have academic samples. I told you I don't really trust non-academic aegean samples because of the movements the smaller islands experience. I think only Crete and Cyprus can be truly trusted, as they already had a very significant local population.
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    Something that's been on my mind lately but that I keep forgetting to ask. If Italy_Medieval_Collegno_O and Germany_Medieval_O are both likely descended recently from somewhere in the East-Mediterranean from a similar time period, guessing near 500 AD. How do we explain their vast difference between each other?

    Other then Sardinia (an exaggeration, I know Sardinia is a lot less CHG influenced) where else could a 300-600 AD sample come from in the Mediterranean that had still retained such a high Neolithic Anatolian type of DNA without being crossed over with more CHG influence like what happened over Chalcholithic and Bronze Age Western Anatolia? Balkans_IA is maybe from 500 BC and positioned pretty closely with Germany_Medieval_O but I would have expected a greater shift over that 1000 year period if Germany_Medieval_O is from the Balkan Peninsula.

    Edit: My bad for detracting away from the topic of Jews.
    Last edited by Seabass; 12-13-2018 at 01:11 PM.

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