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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleach View Post
    So, at that stage and according to you, Ashkenazi ethnogenenis would be roughly more like this

    Judean = 33%
    Greek Anatolian as Mycenaean-like (since No levantinized) = 25%
    Cyrenaica Berbers = 7%
    Northern Italian-like pop = 25%
    Slavic = 5%
    North caucasian-like pop = 5% (Except if you think Greek Anatolians Mycenean like had already some additional CHG before Hellenistic period)

    rather than like this ?

    Judean = 23%
    Greek Anatolian as Modern Aegean like (Mycennean + LevantIA + CHG) = 40%
    Cyrenaica Berbers = 7%
    Northern-Italian-like pop = 25%
    Slavic = 5%

    or neither one nor the other and therefore what would be your split model ?
    We will need to see these Roman samples to be certain.

    My belief is that we're still looking at minimum 30-35% Levantine from Judeans. I don't believe it's 25% North Italian-like - IMO much less. All-in-all, I still believe the East Med component is the most dominant one.
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    Is it just me or GEDmatch doesn't let users choose a calculator anymore? If you select Eurogenes, for example, it automatically gives Eurogenes K13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Is it just me or GEDmatch doesn't let users choose a calculator anymore? If you select Eurogenes, for example, it automatically gives Eurogenes K13.
    Yes, I've noticed this today also. Very strange.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    As far as the Sea People are concerned, some are now dismissing large settlements of Aegean-like populations in the coastal Levant. Like many of us, including Erik, I am waiting eagerly for the first aDNA extracted from the Philistines. Their origins are still hotly disputed, ranging from the Aegean, western Anatolia and Cyprus. Of course, it is likely that Sea People were an amalgam of various people to the west of the Levant looking for new places to settle. The genetic evidence is allowing us to assess the position of the anti-migrationist school of thought. There is an emerging neo-migrationist school, which may yet be supported, at least partially, by the DNA evidence.
    For reasons I've stated before (including here), it's basically a given that the Sea Peoples were primarily of Aegean origin. I use "Aegean" in the widest sense here, what I really have in mind is the Mycenaean world at its largest extent. Cyprus became a major outpost for the Sea Peoples, think of it as a pirate haven, Cyprus' central position in this Bronze Age world was a boon which probably played a huge role in enabling them to wreak havoc not only in Anatolia where they had a role in the fall of the Hittite empire but also immediately to the east where they destroyed Ugarit, likewise the Philistines also settled in the northern Levant (what would now be Turkey's Hatay province) before heading south. So there is a form of syncretism between Mycenaean and Cypriot elements wherever the Sea Peoples settle, of course this is clearer when dealing with the Philistines as most of the research revolves around them (not without reason, the other Sea Peoples are more elusive). Genetically-speaking, odds are the Philistines initially were somewhere between the Mycenaeans and EBA Anatolians, so probably not far from many of the Romans in the upcoming study.

    This ties in rather well with your question: Were the Alashiyans Indo-European speakers? Since Cyprus was mainly settled from Anatolia during the Bronze Age prior to the coming of the Greeks, it's likely that they indeed were an IE-speaking population akin to the Luwians... That being said, it is also extremely likely that Cyprus was home to a greater share of non-IE languages, Eteocypriot (which is currently unclassified) was spoken well into the classical period, few linguists would surmise that this is an IE language (or an Afroasiatic one for that matter). That being said, while the Cypro-Minoan script was probably devised for a non-IE language, possibly an early form of Eteocypriot (an educated guess as the script remains undeciphered), I have little doubt that it was subsequently adapted to transcribe Late Mycenaean Greek (which would give rise to Arcadocypriot Greek) and the Philistine language (which apparently also used this script) much like Linear B is bound to be an adaptation of Linear A.

    In many ways, Cyprus was something of an anomaly during the Bronze Age. You had this resource-rich island which was filled with copper, in other words an island with some of the largest deposits of the rare metal around which the world revolved back then, moreover this island was ideally located between all the major civilisations of the Bronze Age. Logically, Cyprus should have emerged as a superpower much like Egypt, Babylon or Mitanni by the Middle Bronze Age... And yet it remained in the shadow of all the larger empires, even falling under the Hittite yoke during Suppiluliuma II's reign. In my view, Cyprus catched up by serving as the main platform from which the Sea Peoples launched attacks which swiftly brought down the pillars of the Late Bronze Age world with brute force (just my opinion, you're free to disregard it).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 05-23-2019 at 03:41 PM.
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    Its quite interesting that Antiquity Greeks were very much like late Bronze Age Mycaeneans . When did this genetic continuum end as modern Greeks are quite different now?


    "sample": "GRC_Mycenaean:Average",
    "fit": 2.1705,
    "Anatolia_Barcin_N": 77.5,
    "IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 11.67,
    "GEO_CHG": 5.83,
    "WHG": 3.33,
    "RUS_Sidelkino_HG": 1.67,
    "MAR_Iberomaurusian": 0,


    "sample": "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:Average",
    "fit": 2.837,
    "Anatolia_Barcin_N": 80,
    "IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 9.17,
    "GEO_CHG": 5.83,
    "RUS_Sidelkino_HG": 5,
    "MAR_Iberomaurusian": 0,
    "WHG": 0,

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Its quite interesting that Antiquity Greeks were very much like late Bronze Age Mycaeneans . When did this genetic continuum end as modern Greeks are quite different now?


    "sample": "GRC_Mycenaean:Average",
    "fit": 2.1705,
    "Anatolia_Barcin_N": 77.5,
    "IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 11.67,
    "GEO_CHG": 5.83,
    "WHG": 3.33,
    "RUS_Sidelkino_HG": 1.67,
    "MAR_Iberomaurusian": 0,


    "sample": "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:Average",
    "fit": 2.837,
    "Anatolia_Barcin_N": 80,
    "IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 9.17,
    "GEO_CHG": 5.83,
    "RUS_Sidelkino_HG": 5,
    "MAR_Iberomaurusian": 0,
    "WHG": 0,
    I would guess during the initial Slavic incursions of the 6th century AD and later Slavic settlements as well a significant pre-Slavic Balkan movements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Its quite interesting that Antiquity Greeks were very much like late Bronze Age Mycaeneans . When did this genetic continuum end as modern Greeks are quite different now?
    Slavic input on the mainland, and Levantine input (and minor degrees of Slavic) on the islands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Slavic input on the mainland, and Levantine input (and minor degrees of Slavic) on the islands.
    The closest population to Classical Greeks were the Abruzos at least on G25

    I think a more Steppe shifted classical Greek population is needed.

    "sample": "Italian_Abruzzo:Average",
    "fit": 0.9153,
    "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2": 50,
    "Bell_Beaker_FRA": 30,
    "Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 20,
    "closestDistances": [

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    For reasons I've stated before (including here), it's basically a given that the Sea Peoples were primarily of Aegean origin. I use "Aegean" in the widest sense here, what I really have in mind is the Mycenaean world at its largest extent. Cyprus became a major outpost for the Sea Peoples, think of it as a pirate haven, Cyprus' central position in this Bronze Age world was a boon which probably played a huge role in enabling them to wreak havoc not only in Anatolia where they had a role in the fall of the Hittite empire but also immediately to the east where they destroyed Ugarit, likewise the Philistines also settled in the northern Levant (what would now be Turkey's Hatay province) before heading south. So there is a form of syncretism between Mycenaean and Cypriot elements wherever the Sea Peoples settle, of course this is clearer when dealing with the Philistines as most of the research revolves around them (not without reason, the other Sea Peoples are more elusive). Genetically-speaking, odds are the Philistines initially were somewhere between the Mycenaeans and EBA Anatolians, so probably not far from many of the Romans in the upcoming study.

    This ties in rather well with your question: Were the Alashiyans Indo-European speakers? Since Cyprus was mainly settled from Anatolia during the Bronze Age prior to the coming of the Greeks, it's likely that they indeed were an IE-speaking population akin to the Luwians... That being said, it is also extremely likely that Cyprus was home to a greater share of non-IE languages, Eteocypriot (which is currently unclassified) was spoken well into the classical period, few linguists would surmise that this is an IE language (or an Afroasiatic one for that matter). That being said, while the Cypro-Minoan script was probably devised for a non-IE language, possibly an early form of Eteocypriot (an educated guess as the script remains undeciphered), I have little doubt that it was subsequently adapted to transcribe Late Mycenaean Greek (which would give rise to Arcadocypriot Greek) and the Philistine language (which apparently also used this script) much like Linear B is bound to be an adaptation of Linear A.

    In many ways, Cyprus was something of an anomaly during the Bronze Age. You had this resource-rich island which was filled with copper, in other words an island with some of the largest deposits of the rare metal around which the world revolved back then, moreover this island was ideally located between all the major civilisations of the Bronze Age. Logically, Cyprus should have emerged as a superpower much like Egypt, Babylon or Mitanni by the Middle Bronze Age... And yet it remained in the shadow of all the larger empires, even falling under the Hittite yoke during Suppiluliuma II's reign. In my view, Cyprus catched up by serving as the main platform from which the Sea Peoples launched attacks which swiftly brought down the pillars of the Late Bronze Age world with brute force (just my opinion, you're free to disregard it).
    I totally agree Philistines were of Aegean origin - the material evidence makes this almost certain.

    I wonder now that we almost verified for certain the drastic genetic impact of Greek settlement in Italy, how the Levant was impacted. After all, counting in the Philistines, the Levant was also technically settled by Aegean populations since LHIIIC (Late Helladic 3C), then in Hellenistic times most likely was also drastically settled there, from Antioch to the Decapolis. We know that non-Jewish populations such the Alawites (which have historically and to this day have the highest concentration in the vicinity of historical Antioch) show some drift towards the Aegean populations, but I wonder if we can now assume that at least some of the Steppe ancestry in post-BA Levantines derive from Greek (both Philistine and Hellenisitc) settlement there.

    I'm sure that some of it derive from Assyrians and Persians, but I wonder if some of it also derive from Aegeans.

    Do we know of any Aegean/South Balkan subclades which appear among contemporary Levantines?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    The closest population to Classical Greeks were the Abruzos at least on G25

    I think a more Steppe shifted classical Greek population is needed.

    "sample": "Italian_Abruzzo:Average",
    "fit": 0.9153,
    "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2": 50,
    "Bell_Beaker_FRA": 30,
    "Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 20,
    "closestDistances": [
    The difference is Abruzzese are still impacted by the Levant in a way classical Greeks were not (which we see in your model)... Abruzzese are basically the northernmost reach of the East Med spectrum, along with groups like Cyclades island Greeks, some North Aegean islanders, and Maniots.

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