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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #4531
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    As someone who has followed Taleb for a while, I used to believe him on a lot of issues. Anthrogenica pretty much cleaned up my knowledge in the end. Between Taleb and his Helleno-Lebanese theories and the occasional Arabist that posts on Anthrogenica or ranted in 19th century era books, i've learned to weave through all the jargon. Agamemnon was quite helpful in helping me narrow down my real ancestry and origins. The result? Y Dna firmly rooted in the Levant and aDNA overwhelmingly Phoenician/Caananite. Of course some Lebanese pull different ways and some have non Levantine Y DNA markers but from what I have seen we all share pretty much the same ancestry. At this point i'm more interested in the more ancient groups of people who contributed to the population that would become Caananites and later on Phoenicians.

    I will say however Taleb, his circle and the growing people that follow him have helped in steering Lebanon away from Pan-Arabism and although there are better academics/historians than him on these issues it is something I am personally glad about.

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  3. #4532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    The fact that many of the scholars who promote this worn-out theory are Jewish is just further proof that Jews can also be antisemites.

    To be honest, I think the right attitude here is not to care at all. The data that debunks this theory was already available 10 years ago, all you needed was an internet connection and curiosity. No amount of academic revisionism is going to change the data. If idiots are unable to educate themselves, who am I to contradict them? Knowledge is power and I'm perfectly fine with them having none of it.
    1. Both during the middle ages and the modern history we have seen numerous examples of recently converted Jews who initiated antisemitic pogroms. Same thing is about soviet time antisemitism, when a small, but loud group of Jews supported communists in suppressing Zionists or Jews not loyal enough. Self-hating or antisemitic Jews is a long living phenomena.

    2. No matter what is their reason, it might be ideological unwillingness to accept Levantine roots of Ashkenazi Jews or just unwillingness to admit being wrong or maybe both, these people do use their position in the academy both to spread their lies and to obstruct an open and fair discussion. If their voice is loud enough, it should not be just ignored.

    3. It is sad that modern academy is not able to clear itself from these people (generally speaking, not just about Khazar theory supporters, all the academics of a kind), and they continue using both taxpayers and university sponsor's money to spread their fantasies.

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    Admittedly stretching topicality but instructive and entertaining nevertheless. A clip of an Ashkenazi-Beta-Israel wedding in Israel, showing the reality:

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    CNN International is airing a report on the disturbing rise of antisemitism in Europe, at 2130 GMT on 12th January. Worth a watch.

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    Of all towns/cities in the world, one place where both the Jewish and Christian local populations are kinda close is Smyrna or Izmir, Turkey. Based off the MDLP K23b spreadsheet and the results of these ancient samples, the Smyrna Greeks may show really good continuity since the Roman and Early Byzantine Empire. I know it's discouraged to analyse the results of ancient samples with gedmatch calculators but the ancients all have >100,000 SNP's computed. If there was a Gedmatch ID for Iron Age Anatolians, I would have included them in the table too. I didn't think it was necessary to start a thread over this, but I've just found it pretty interesting and cool for a long time that Izmiri Greeks and Jews (sadly very few today and declining . . .) are quite similar, despite having lived centuries together, speaking completely different languages, not marrying one another.

    The Izmiri Jews are basically just very strongly North African shifted and noticeably Levantine shifted from those Greeks. Arguably potentially Iberian/Italian shifted too since I'm guessing the actual source of the Izmiri Jews and Greeks 'European HG' component (despite the same level) is likely different from one another.

    https://imgur.com/9mbxlM4

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  11. #4536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Of all towns/cities in the world, one place where both the Jewish and Christian local populations are kinda close is Smyrna or Izmir, Turkey. Based off the MDLP K23b spreadsheet and the results of these ancient samples, the Smyrna Greeks may show really good continuity since the Roman and Early Byzantine Empire. I know it's discouraged to analyse the results of ancient samples with gedmatch calculators but the ancients all have >100,000 SNP's computed. If there was a Gedmatch ID for Iron Age Anatolians, I would have included them in the table too. I didn't think it was necessary to start a thread over this, but I've just found it pretty interesting and cool for a long time that Izmiri Greeks and Jews (sadly very few today and declining . . .) are quite similar, despite having lived centuries together, speaking completely different languages, not marrying one another.

    The Izmiri Jews are basically just very strongly North African shifted and noticeably Levantine shifted from those Greeks. Arguably potentially Iberian/Italian shifted too since I'm guessing the actual source of the Izmiri Jews and Greeks 'European HG' component (despite the same level) is likely different from one another.

    https://imgur.com/9mbxlM4


    Thanks for this Seabass!

    Do we know the source and how many are included in these Smyrna Greek and Jewish community samples? The Greek presence in Smyrna was basically to end after the 1922 Great Fire of Smyrna. Turkish forces had entered the city in September 1922, four days before the fire started. The 1923 Exchange of Populations Treaty removed any remaining Greeks who had not been rescued or managed to flee to Greece on boats. Others were deported to the interior of Anatolia by the victorious Turkish army, where many met their end due to the harsh conditions. The Armenian section of the population suffered a similar fate.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_fire_of_Smyrna

    We must remember that the Greek element of the population had been boosted by constant flows of migrants to the city from the Greek islands, Crete, Cyprus, the Greek mainland and Cappadocia since the end of the 18th century. So it's quite a good example of a mixed Greek reference group.

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  13. #4537
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    You have to be careful with the Iron Age Anatolian samples if you ever get them in GEDmatch as they are a mixed bunch. One of them appears to be of Galatian origin, and the Gallic upper caste would have differed significantly from the local Christian and Jewish populations by way of excess Steppe admixture. The other Iron Age Anatolian sample shows Central Asian admixture that both the Greeks and Jews would lack. All things considered, they're not really representative but still interesting nonetheless. You can read more about that here:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/1...-ancients.html
    Last edited by LTG; 01-12-2019 at 12:26 PM.

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  15. #4538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Of all towns/cities in the world, one place where both the Jewish and Christian local populations are kinda close is Smyrna or Izmir, Turkey. Based off the MDLP K23b spreadsheet and the results of these ancient samples, the Smyrna Greeks may show really good continuity since the Roman and Early Byzantine Empire. I know it's discouraged to analyse the results of ancient samples with gedmatch calculators but the ancients all have >100,000 SNP's computed. If there was a Gedmatch ID for Iron Age Anatolians, I would have included them in the table too. I didn't think it was necessary to start a thread over this, but I've just found it pretty interesting and cool for a long time that Izmiri Greeks and Jews (sadly very few today and declining . . .) are quite similar, despite having lived centuries together, speaking completely different languages, not marrying one another.

    The Izmiri Jews are basically just very strongly North African shifted and noticeably Levantine shifted from those Greeks. Arguably potentially Iberian/Italian shifted too since I'm guessing the actual source of the Izmiri Jews and Greeks 'European HG' component (despite the same level) is likely different from one another.

    https://imgur.com/9mbxlM4
    Nice comparison ! Do you know if those Izmir Jews are Sephardic, or Romaniote? Btw, I don't see them as overtly more Levantine shifted, as opposed to their much more obvious North African shift.
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  17. #4539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Nice comparison ! Do you know if those Izmir Jews are Sephardic, or Romaniote? Btw, I don't see them as overtly more Levantine shifted, as opposed to their much more obvious North African shift.
    This one Izmiri Jew is Sephardic with no known other background. I don't think there would be any difference between Sephardic Jews from Salonika, Izmir, Istanbul, Edirne and Bursa and Adana. It seemed for centuries Istanbul had a mostly 50/50 hold between Romaniotes and Sephardim who may have had a very subtle genetic difference between one another as shown in this thread. Ashkenazi Jews were a noticeable minority in Istanbul too.

    I think based off this spreadsheet, some of their 'North African' may be from the Levant and Egypt.

    North-African
    Mozabite 75.44612245
    Saharawi 56.35777778
    Burbur_WGA 55.132
    TUNISIA 53.85
    Morocco_S 46.62333333
    Kurd_WGA 42.635
    Moroccans 41.28
    Algerian 39.665
    Shaigi_WGA 39.49333333
    Tunisian 34.85272727
    Amhara 18.09
    Egyptian_Comas 16.49238095
    Tunisian_Jew 16.00555556
    Libyan_Jew 15.86272727

    Egyptian_Metspalu 15.22454545
    Spanish_Canarias_IBS 14.79
    Ethiopian_Jew 14.24111111
    Tygray 14.0925
    Afar_WGA 13.512
    Esomali 13.33666667
    Ethiopians 13.098
    Moroccan_Jew 13.02
    Wolyata 12.1875
    BedouinA 11.51974359
    Somali 11.45444444
    Oromo 11.372
    Christian-Arabs-Israel 10.76
    Yemenite_Jew 10.11818182
    Italian_Jew 9.88
    Sephardic_Jews 9.668461538

    Maltese 9.663636364
    Palestinian 9.605849057
    Turkish_Jew 9.572307692
    French_Jew 9.16

    Portugese 9.106
    Syrian_Jew 9.105
    Jordanian 8.854
    Muslim-Arabs-Israel 8.595
    Samaritians 8.28

    Yemen 8.07
    Lebanese 7.890909091
    Qatari 7.85
    Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS 7.66
    Lebanese_Christian 7.441333333
    1_Ajvide59 7.39
    Saudi 7.317333333
    Puerto-Rican 7.220526316
    Lebanese_Muslim 7.128444444
    Datog 7.01
    Sicilian 6.786923077
    Ashkenazi_Jew 6.671818182
    Syrian 6.636363636
    Italian_WestSicilian 6.615714286
    Spanish_Extremadura_IBS 6.444
    Spanish_Murcia_IBS 6.43
    Ari 6.09
    Italian_EastSicilian 6.046
    Lebanese_Druze 6.035111111
    Spanish_Galicia_IBS 5.82
    Mexican_CV 5.79
    Cypriot 5.778181818
    Romanian_Jews 5.75
    Spanish_Andalucia_IBS 5.615
    Druze 5.415079365
    Iranian_Jew 5.384
    Italian_South 5.35
    Sardinian 5.185686275
    Ain_Touta_WGA 4.966666667
    Iraki 4.872
    Spanish_Valencia_IBS 4.858
    Uzbekistani_Jews 4.73
    1_LBK380 4.72
    Kurd_Jew 4.68
    Mexican 4.623846154
    Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS 4.592
    Spaniards 4.545714286
    Cretan 4.474
    Spanish_Aragon_IBS 4.471428571
    Masai_Kinyawa_MKK 4.42
    Spanish_Cataluna_IBS 4.31
    Serrano 4.3
    Spanish_Cantabria_IBS 4.204
    Iraqi_Jew 4.100769231
    Turkish_Adana 4.067333333
    Colombian 3.950909091
    Assyrian_WGA 3.864
    Georgian_Jew 3.787692308
    Cochin_Jew 3.714
    Kuban_cossack 3.68
    Greek-Islands 3.667142857







    Near-East
    BedouinB 85.07621622
    Qatari 57.226
    Saudi 49.07133333
    Yemenite_Jew 42.23090909
    Yemen 32.42571429
    BedouinA 30.30307692
    Egyptian_Metspalu 28.20909091
    Tygray 26.84
    Amhara 26.28
    Ethiopian_Jew 26.06222222
    Samaritians 25.67
    Ethiopians 25.588
    Egyptian_Comas 25.35619048
    Palestinian 25.21792453
    Afar_WGA 25.104
    Syrian 24.37
    Muslim-Arabs-Israel 23.77
    Jordanian 22.88466667
    Moroccans 22.54
    Lebanese_Christian 22.30822222
    Iraqi_Jew 21.39692308
    Lebanese 21.28090909
    Lebanese_Druze 20.35511111
    Druze 20.32603175
    Lebanese_Muslim 20.27488889
    Christian-Arabs-Israel 19.87
    Iranian_Jew 19.73733333
    Tunisian 19.35
    Iraki 19.193
    Kurd_Jew 19.08
    Oromo 18.784
    Somali 18.55703704
    Wolyata 18.105
    Esomali 17.65333333
    Jew_Tat 17.0475
    Cypriot 16.80909091
    Tunisian_Jew 16.6
    Uzbekistani_Jews 16.45
    Ain_Touta_WGA 16.41666667
    Syrian_Jew 16.34
    Uzbekistan_Jew 16.27
    Libyan_Jew 16.21454545
    Assyrian_WGA 15.444
    Turkish_Jew 15.36153846
    Saharawi 15.12444444
    Georgian_Jew 14.97615385
    Sephardic_Jews 14.96461538
    Moroccan_Jew 14.72888889

    Shaigi_WGA 14.28333333
    Italian_Jew 14.15571429
    Kurds 13.51
    Armenian_WGA 13.27333333
    Turkish_Adana 13.21933333
    Cretan 13.13
    Algerian 13.1
    Armenian 12.96733333
    Burbur_WGA 12.524
    Iranian 12.51384615
    Kurd_WGA 12.175
    Datog 12.13333333
    Greek-Islands 12.13142857
    Morocco_S 12.06333333
    French_Jew 11.9175
    Kurd 11.91083333
    Uzbek_WGA 11.42
    Baku_WGA 11.18
    Parsi 11.11533333
    Italian_EastSicilian 11.024
    Sicilian 10.82923077
    Azeri 10.69846154
    Turkish_Kayseri 10.55933333
    Ashkenazi_Jew 10.39272727
    Maltese 10.23090909
    Greek_Coriell 10.20363636
    Turks 10.09625
    North_Greek 9.912222222
    Romanian_Jews 9.716666667
    TUNISIA 9.59
    Italian_Abruzzo 9.528
    Italian_South 9.47
    Turk 9.16
    Italian_WestSicilian 8.848571429
    1_LBK380 8.72
    Greek_WGA 8.491612903
    Turkish_Aydin 8.382
    Turkish_Trabzon 8.374666667
    Masai_Kinyawa_MKK 8.36
    Masai_Ayodo 8.355
    Greek 8.182857143
    South_Greek 8.156666667
    Last edited by Seabass; 01-13-2019 at 11:57 AM.

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  19. #4540
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    There was no real Izmir before the 17th century. Almost everyone was a migrant from somewhere. For jews it is mostly Manisa, Saloniki, Istanbul and others.

    There was no 50-50 sefarad-romaniote ratio in Istanbul. The ottoman census records are available both before and after 1492. Settlement to Istanbul was more controlled, the Sefards were initially not allowed. The Ashkenazim were always separate, unless you call the people with Eskenazi surname Ashkenazi (I don't). However due to being port cities, easy to settle and less ottoman central control) and good trade opportunities, Izmir had a higher attraction from Italy, the same is true for Gallipoli but at a smaller scale. And then finally in the 20th century, the Aegean communities ended up in Izmir such Tire, Milas etc. These latter communities are quite old and could have some Byzantine origins although many surnames indicate Sefardic origin.
    Last edited by eolien; 01-16-2019 at 02:21 PM.

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