Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

[DEM4867]

What you’re doing is as ahistorical as those saying Jews are 100% converts. References in the Talmud and Midrashim to the Roman community are far and few between in comparison to its importance. It took centuries for Rabbinic Judaism to diffuse out of Judea, until the 8th century when European Jewry suddenly emerges from Hellenistic obscurity as a powerhouse of Hebraic scholarship. Just as the Talmud projects the realities of its time back on the first temple period via Aggadah, it also projects itself spatially as the sole survivor of pre-destruction Judaism. I’d expand more on the topic but I’m abroad and on mobile right now so I’ll just recommend this collection of articles, especially number 9: https://books.openedition.org/obp/19810?lang=en.

Now talking about genetics, most Greco-Roman conversions would have been during the second temple period, when rabbinic law was definitely not the only system among Jews (and rabbinic law too changed its attitude about national issues like conversion over time, especially after the Bar Kochba revolt). While it’s certainly possible there was undocumented early migration from Judea to the West ala early Jews in France or Rus’, I think a late ethnogenesis of Western Jews around the 6th-8th centuries as a merger of, for the most part, Hellenistic converts and Judean migrants might fit the (circumstantial) historical evidence better, and perhaps also the genetic evidence which shows many major Western Jewish clades converging around that time (maybe this is confirmation bias though). The migrants would have initially been emissaries of the Tiberias Yeshiva and later refugees, especially following the destructive 748 earthquake which put an end to most ancient communities in the Land of Israel. But we’ll have to wait for actual Jewish catacomb samples to decide, or at least more Big Y data from Egyptian and Syrian Jews, who certainly played an important role in the emergence of early Eretz-Israel aligned Western Judaism. I remember there being a single Halabi-Ashkenazi clade with an early CE TMRCA but I can’t find it right now.

Sincerely, a Cohen probably descended from a 5th century Italian convert who took the title for himself.

Very interesting, thank you for your comment!
When you say most greco-Roman conversion happened during the 2nd temple period, do you mean they happened in Roman Judea, or elsewhere in the mediterranean?
Also I'd love to hear more avout the late enthogenesis theory if you can elaborate.

I lately watched a lecture (by Israeli historian Yigal Bin Nun) on the enthogenesis of the early north African Jews. There he says that until the kitos wars jews didn't live west of Cyrene, and that they were at least partially hellenized. Their religion (which was quite new in that form) appealed to other people of hellenic culture- Greek citizens of Rome and hellenized berbers ; and they were the ones to convert to judaism (some of them really converted and other were just fans of jews and judaism but didn't go through all of the conversion process or had circumcision done). He explains there that Berber tribes with Berber identity converting is a myth, and mostly hellenized berbers were the ones to convert.
After the kitos wars jews started escaping westwards towars modern day Morocco. He said that we even have evidence that the first Jews documented in Morocco had greek names.

According to him, Judaism was appealing to locals all the way through the 6th century in some places (in coastal north Africa), and some conversions lasted until that period.

What do you think about this theory?

[Vinshlusen]

The Khazar theory enjoyed popularity before DNA testing began. It is another example of historiography gone wrong. One cannot be sure mass conversion took place. We have writings from that period which show the Ancient Greek and Jewish populations clashed and there was a certain significant antagonism (Flavius Josephus, etc, speak about it). Are you aware of that too? A few links on the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_riots_of_66
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandrian_riots_(38_CE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_Apion

I just find it difficult to believe mass conversion of Ancient Greeks took place to the point of turning it into the single largest ancestral component among contemporary Europeans Jews. Yes, I read a few posts on this thread, and I agree with Agamemnon here:

Perhaps it happened. But when looking at the results, they could be just as mostly being from the Levant. New DNA methods may solve it eventually.

The Khazar theory was never historiograpical. It was niether published or supported by academic authorities. It did not pass the "peer review" test so to speak. One or two popular history books sold phenomenally well in bookshops next to the NY underground. It was yesteryears TikTok, nothing to be excited about. Proselytizing in Judaism is however discussed and written about by historians for the past two thousands years, including modern academic historians.

Regarding your reference to the religious wars of the Eastern Mediterranean as a sign that mass proselytizing couldn't have taken place. By that same logic because of the Protestant -Catholic war of Central Europe Protestant proselytizing was not possible, prior, in concurrent or later than these wars. Proselytizing, especially mass forms of it, leads to conflic.

As for the quote from Agamemnon, he is wrong: Jewish proselytizm was an active wide spread phenomenon (regardless if it was en mass or not) all the way up to the 13'th-century. The papal bull issued by Pope Innocent IV in April 1250, to the effect that Jews might not build a new synagogue without special permission, also made it illegal for Jews to proselytize, under pain of death and confiscation of property.
Spanish catholic authorities for example tried and failed multiple times to convince the Germanic rulers of Spain to shutdown Jewish proselytizm. Isn't it telling that that 13'th century catholic authorities will threaten with death Jewish proselytizers? If it was so negligible why denounce it in such fashion?

A more concrete example for Jewish proselytizm not mentioned by Agamemnon in this qoute, and there are many others, is Jewish proselytizing in Visigothic Spain. See:

A Reassessment of Visigothic Jewish Policy, 589-711
Bernard S. Bachrach
The American Historical Review
Vol. 78, No. 1 (Feb., 1973), pp. 11-34 (24 pages)

You can create a free account on jstor and read it online then as part of their free 100 articles per month:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1853939...n_tab_contents

Not only was Jewish proselytizing in Visigothic Spain successful and ongoing, but Catholic authorities failed continuously to undo it.

The list goes on. I believe the root cause of these fallacy is the believe that Jewish religious leaders at historical times were exempt from the power hungery and expansionist attitudes of other religious leaders. The historical records disproves these fallacy, which seems to persist.

[Vinshlusen]

What do you think about this theory?

It seems very probable to me, beyond the man's academic credentials. Why would the Hellenic tendency to convert to Judaism in the Eastern Med would stop at an imaginary line in north Africa? The Greek names you mentioned seem to be quite a robust argument in favor of this theory.
Notice how my post above talks about only 100-200 years afterwards a little northern than there, in the Iberian peninsula, proselytizm continued. These two two locations are of the same geographical spheres and early north African Jews are postulated to be one of the sources of the Sephardics community.

[DEM4867]

It seems very probable to me, beyond the man's academic credentials. Why would the Hellenic tendency to convert to Judaism in the Eastern Med would stop at an imaginary line in north Africa? The Greek names you mentioned seem to be quite a robust argument in favor of this theory.
Notice how my post above talks about only 100-200 years afterwards a little northern than there, in the Iberian peninsula.

The question regarding the Iberian peninsula is whom exactly did they convert (and how large scale was this phenomenon)? We know from modern population genetics that Sephardi Jews do not have much Iberian blood at all (less than the amount of Slavic blood the average Asheknazi have).
For north African Jews we do have genetic evidence for significant amount of Greek like (even 30-40%) and Berber like (even 20+ %) blood, we cannot say the same about Iberian Jews and Iberian blood (at least in the modern sense of western European Iberian).

[Targum]

What you’re doing is as ahistorical as those saying Jews are 100% converts. References in the Talmud and Midrashim to the Roman community are far and few between in comparison to its importance. It took centuries for Rabbinic Judaism to diffuse out of Judea, until the 8th century when European Jewry suddenly emerges from Hellenistic obscurity as a powerhouse of Hebraic scholarship. Just as the Talmud projects the realities of its time back on the first temple period via Aggadah, it also projects itself spatially as the sole survivor of pre-destruction Judaism. I’d expand more on the topic but I’m abroad and on mobile right now so I’ll just recommend this collection of articles, especially number 9: https://books.openedition.org/obp/19810?lang=en.

Now talking about genetics, most Greco-Roman conversions would have been during the second temple period, when rabbinic law was definitely not the only system among Jews (and rabbinic law too changed its attitude about national issues like conversion over time, especially after the Bar Kochba revolt). While it’s certainly possible there was undocumented early migration from Judea to the West ala early Jews in France or Rus’, I think a late ethnogenesis of Western Jews around the 6th-8th centuries as a merger of, for the most part, Hellenistic converts and Judean migrants might fit the (circumstantial) historical evidence better, and perhaps also the genetic evidence which shows many major Western Jewish clades converging around that time (maybe this is confirmation bias though). The migrants would have initially been emissaries of the Tiberias Yeshiva and later refugees, especially following the destructive 748 earthquake which put an end to most ancient communities in the Land of Israel. But we’ll have to wait for actual Jewish catacomb samples to decide, or at least more Big Y data from Egyptian and Syrian Jews, who certainly played an important role in the emergence of early Eretz-Israel aligned Western Judaism. I remember there being a single Halabi-Ashkenazi clade with an early CE TMRCA but I can’t find it right now.

Sincerely, a Cohen probably descended from a 5th century Italian convert who took the title for himself.

Re-read , you may have misunderstood, we are not in disagreement

[Cassidy1234]

Something relevant to this thread though.

The model suggested in the premise of this thread, is now, finally, in a peer reviewed paper.

Are these models for western Jewry? Because if they are then I'd say it proves yours and others points here that the majority of European DNA in Western Jewry is Greek. I think the 32% ME DNA is kinda spot on, but I think that actual Levantine ancestry in western Jewry on average is on the same level as Palestinian Muslims, no(esp for Southern Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardim)? It really makes me wonder on where did the ancient Jews began mixing with Greek women; did they mix with them in their time in Alexandria?

[Cassidy1234]

How many people posting on here are familiar enough with Hebrew sources,Jewish Aramaic Sources, Contemporary and Historic Jewish Practice ("Orthodox") , and the "vibe"
of Jewish communal life in a mainstream Orthodox, observant community? Other than a handful of us, no offense, most of the posters are clueless. Hellenistic Judaism is well documented,
in precise detail and description, in the Talmud (Mishnah and Gemara), Midrashim, and a variety of reliable Jewish sources. The Halakhah (Jewish Law) and Minhagim (Customs) of Giyur (Conversion)
and Nisu'in (Marraige according to Halakhah), are not at all mysterious and easily accessible. I write this, because some posters are suggesting a kind of (pulled from the butt) "Replacement Theory", seeming
to indicate that Hellenistic Converts replaced exiled Judeans. Absolutely false; and blatantly antisemitic/racist(Jews are not really Judean). Sorry to disappoint you; Jews are in fact Jews, and while Converts have been
welcomed throughout history, they never were more than a minority of Jews of the period, even when (Reputed) group conversions (Berbers, Khazars, Yemenis, etc) occurred. Jews are not leaving Israel, and we are
not cooperating in the efforts (בכל דור ודור bekhol dor vador "In every generation...they seek to exterminate us") to make us disappear. You do not like Jewish people? Fine we leave you alone and you return the favor.

People look at this situation in this black and white thing; the majority of mixes between Jews and Gentiles even today is between Jewish men with gentile females, esp White women. Looking at the Y-DNA and mtDNA between Jewish groups all over the world they seem to be well connected by the former but are very diverse by the latter. Ancient Jewish men would have mixed and assimilated non-Jewish women into their fold. While Western Jewry like Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews stopped mixing all together Yemeni Jews kept mixing with the local Arab populace until their autosomal DNA resembled those of Arabians. Same with Ethiopian Jews as well. Of course, they're well connected with other Jews by their Y-DNA. As for Levantine Muslims it's the other way around; Arab men would have mixed with the local women hence why Palestinian Muslim men are over 40% J1 in contrast to Palestinian Christian men who are predom. of E1b1 haplogroup. We also see this sort of thing with modern English people with their Celtic neighbors as well.

[Cassidy1234]

What you’re doing is as ahistorical as those saying Jews are 100% converts. References in the Talmud and Midrashim to the Roman community are far and few between in comparison to its importance. It took centuries for Rabbinic Judaism to diffuse out of Judea, until the 8th century when European Jewry suddenly emerges from Hellenistic obscurity as a powerhouse of Hebraic scholarship. Just as the Talmud projects the realities of its time back on the first temple period via Aggadah, it also projects itself spatially as the sole survivor of pre-destruction Judaism. I’d expand more on the topic but I’m abroad and on mobile right now so I’ll just recommend this collection of articles, especially number 9: https://books.openedition.org/obp/19810?lang=en.

Now talking about genetics, most Greco-Roman conversions would have been during the second temple period, when rabbinic law was definitely not the only system among Jews (and rabbinic law too changed its attitude about national issues like conversion over time, especially after the Bar Kochba revolt). While it’s certainly possible there was undocumented early migration from Judea to the West ala early Jews in France or Rus’, I think a late ethnogenesis of Western Jews around the 6th-8th centuries as a merger of, for the most part, Hellenistic converts and Judean migrants might fit the (circumstantial) historical evidence better, and perhaps also the genetic evidence which shows many major Western Jewish clades converging around that time (maybe this is confirmation bias though). The migrants would have initially been emissaries of the Tiberias Yeshiva and later refugees, especially following the destructive 748 earthquake which put an end to most ancient communities in the Land of Israel. But we’ll have to wait for actual Jewish catacomb samples to decide, or at least more Big Y data from Egyptian and Syrian Jews, who certainly played an important role in the emergence of early Eretz-Israel aligned Western Judaism. I remember there being a single Halabi-Ashkenazi clade with an early CE TMRCA but I can’t find it right now.

Sincerely, a Cohen probably descended from a 5th century Italian convert who took the title for himself.

He never said this. He's simply saying that Jews are admixed with gentiles, esp their women, while also retaining genetic ancestry that goes back to the Levant as well. The Jews that are used in this study are Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews since they make up the majority of world Jewry, and are genetically very similar to one another unlike with Mizrahi Jews who are genetically very heterogenous.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/h...ern-arabs-jews

[Freb]

Are these models for western Jewry? Because if they are then I'd say it proves yours and others points here that the majority of European DNA in Western Jewry is Greek. I think the 32% ME DNA is kinda spot on, but I think that actual Levantine ancestry in western Jewry on average is on the same level as Palestinian Muslims, no(esp for Southern Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardim)? It really makes me wonder on where did the ancient Jews began mixing with Greek women; did they mix with them in their time in Alexandria?

I don't think so. The 32% ME is covering what Erfurt are, not Ashkenazim. Components are missing (as in German and Slavic) so they'd be less "Levantine" and I'm pretty sure Palestinian Muslims are way more Levantine than this and even then ME encompasses other components that are not even Levantine. and... alright I'll bite, why are we comparing Ashkenazim to Palestinian Muslims? I could just read the room here and I can already see where this is going. As per Targum's post, I don't know why Israel was mentioned on the whole "make us disappear" tirade. There should be no room for geopolitical discussion on a genetic based discourse, at all. I say we discuss what matters to the discussion and refrain from it going down this road to nowhere. And.. by no means is the 51% Greek 32% ME & 17% East-EU the full picture. I've hypothesized something like 50% Anatolian (which includes Galatian Celts & Anatolians (ie Hurrians, Mitanni), 25% MENA (Levantine & North African), 10% Mediterranean (which includes Italians & Iberians) & 15% Khazar in another thread before this paper came out. Now, looking at this I'd say I was not far off from it.

[Abceff]

actual Levantine ancestry in western Jewry on average is on the same level as Palestinian Muslims, no(esp for Southern Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardim)?

no


Target: Italian_Jew
Distance: 1.3427% / 0.01342704
37.8 GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
30.6 Levant_Baqah_BA
11.0 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA
10.2 IRN_HajjiFiruz_BA
9.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche
1.2 KAZ_Kimak

Target: Romaniote_Jew
Distance: 0.9870% / 0.00986998
36.0 Levant_Baqah_BA
35.2 GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
13.8 IRN_HajjiFiruz_BA
8.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
5.0 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA
1.2 KAZ_Kimak

Target: Palestinian_Muslim
Distance: 1.0959% / 0.01095915
62.4 Levant_Baqah_BA
16.8 IRN_HajjiFiruz_BA
14.2 EGY_Late_Period
3.8 Dinka
1.4 Yoruba
1.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.4 TZA_Luxmanda_3100BP