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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #6961
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleach View Post
    I really dont know how explaining that
    Maybe are you an immortal descendant of a Judean warrior and a Tuscan milkmaid ?
    Your story reminds me the fate of this guy
    Look closer. Those aren't my results, but of the Ashkenazi average. By "gives me", I meant the numbers G25 spits back at me. You get my point though: entering in known ancestral populations into G25 and pressing RUN won't just sometimes give incorrect results, but also very incorrect results.
    Last edited by StillWater; 08-13-2019 at 09:09 PM.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

  2. #6962
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    I know that Ashkenazim should have background from the following: Lebanese Christians(if you argue that a proxy changes everything, then how many models do you have to toss out?), Tuscans, and Poles. G25 yields this:

    "sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
    "fit": 1.5512,
    "Lebanese_Christian": 50.83,
    "Italian_Tuscan": 40,
    "Polish": 9.17,

    I then read a bit more and learn that Ashkenazim should have German ancestry too:

    "sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
    "fit": 1.5108,
    "Lebanese_Christian": 55.83,
    "Italian_Tuscan": 22.5,
    "German": 21.67,
    "Polish": 0,

    Looks like there is no Polish ancestry after all.
    Why Tuscans?
    What historical narrative of Ethnogenesis trail are you following?

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  4. #6963
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Why Tuscans?
    What historical narrative of Ethnogenesis trail are you following?
    The standard one. Tuscans were first brought up by Behar, as I recall. (here is a reference to it: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn.../#.XVMjieNKiUk) The location also makes sense. It's where the Kalonymides were - the family which gave birth to the Rabbis which formed the Rabbinical foundation of Ashkenaz. Should you have some issue with Tuscany in particular, we can go with this:

    "sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
    "fit": 1.3532,
    "Lebanese_Christian": 60,
    "German": 20,
    "Italian_Bergamo": 20,
    "Polish": 0,

    The point remains.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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  6. #6964
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    The standard one. Tuscans were first brought up by Behar, as I recall. (here is a reference to it: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn.../#.XVMjieNKiUk) The location also makes sense. It's where the Kalonymides were - the family which gave birth to the Rabbis which formed the Rabbinical foundation of Ashkenaz. Should you have some issue with Tuscany in particular, we can go with this:

    "sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
    "fit": 1.3532,
    "Lebanese_Christian": 60,
    "German": 20,
    "Italian_Bergamo": 20,
    "Polish": 0,

    The point remains.
    Kalonymides were either of Greek or Greko Southern Italian Jewry not directly Levantine.
    Add Southern Italian instead.

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  8. #6965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    For me Jonah it all depends on what ethogenesis narrative and timescale we are going with for western Jews?

    For Ashkenazim we have one narrative of post Heraclius revolt 7th Century full Levantine Jews moving to North Italy temporarily for 200 years then moving France/Germany then Eastern Europe.
    So whole Narrative lasts from full Levantine population in Levant 700AD to 1500 Eastern Europe so Roughly a genetic timescale narrative of only 700 years.

    2nd Narrative is 1st Century AD already partially mixed Levantine population movements plus a stay in Southern Europe for near on 600 years plus another 500 years bringing us up to Eastern Europe in 1500ís So in comparison we are talking about a partially mixed Levantine population with a genetic timescale narrative of twice as long as the first narrative at Roughly 1400 years.

    With both narratives we know there were converts to some degree (evidently almost exclusively women (Southern European,then Western and Eastern European women.

    With the first narrative I can see the possibility as you mention that of Western Jews being 40-50% Autosomaly descended from Roman era Levantines.

    Iím just not 100% convinced it would be possible with the second narrative which is for starters twice as long as the first,snd starts with an already admixed Levantine population movement.
    Plus then we have to factor in that we donít know how much modern Autosomal Admixture of Western Jews was picked up solely as maternally inherited Admixture during this Roman period and subsequent extra 600 years in Southern Europe so Western Jews coming up only 25/30% Autosomaly Roman era Levantines doesnít necessarily seem that unreasonable all things considered.
    Claudio, I have explained several times here, in discussions with you I believe as well, why the plausibility of Ashkenazim' Levantine component deriving from the Heraclius revolt is very, very slim. It is documented that most refugees fled to either Egypt or Mesopotamia. Many, btw, were allowed to return few years later when the Muslims took over the Galilee. The plausibility of any substantial amount of Jews fleeing all the way to Northern Italy from the Galilee in the 7th century CE is extremely small.
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  10. #6966
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    Yes I agree with you.
    But for along time this narrative was commonly believed and even today is sometimes brought up on other forums usually by the much older generation.
    That’s the only reason I include it.
    Still more plausible than any of El Haiks nonsense.

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  12. #6967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Kalonymides were either of Greek or Greko Southern Italian Jewry not directly Levantine.
    Add Southern Italian instead.
    They don't have to be instant transplants from Israel. They could've stopped off on Mars, for all I care. They were in Tuscany and possibly north of there during the admixture event, as per the standard narrative. As an aside - How much info is there on them even migrating from Southern Italy or Greece? Are you simply going off their name?

    Just because as an immortal, I have all the time to waste:

    "sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
    "fit": 1.1694,
    "Italian_South": 45,
    "Lebanese_Christian": 41.67,
    "German": 12.5,
    "Polish": 0.83,

    Polish is upgraded to a whooping noise level. The point remains - the presence of German makes the Polish vanish.

    These tangents are distracting us from the point. The point is that if we plug in known ancestral populations, we may still get fairly inaccurate results. As I recall, those who argue the Aegean/South Italian narrative, still agree the North/Central Italian admixture should be in there. Therefore if omission, or choosing the wrong subregion within the same country yields grave errors in G25, then how much can we invest in models which draw upon even more widespread historical regions, giving room for even more similar errors? Consider how limited our references are for the alleged Berber contribution(s).
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Claudio, I have explained several times here, in discussions with you I believe as well, why the plausibility of Ashkenazim' Levantine component deriving from the Heraclius revolt is very, very slim. It is documented that most refugees fled to either Egypt or Mesopotamia. Many, btw, were allowed to return few years later when the Muslims took over the Galilee. The plausibility of any substantial amount of Jews fleeing all the way to Northern Italy from the Galilee in the 7th century CE is extremely small.
    This is why I say that they likely accumulated a lot of their Greek ancestry in southern Italy as they migrated up the Italian Peninsula.

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  16. #6969
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    They don't have to be instant transplants from Israel. They could've stopped off on Mars, for all I care. They were in Tuscany and possibly north of there during the admixture event, as per the standard narrative. As an aside - How much info is there on them even migrating from Southern Italy or Greece? Are you simply going off their name?

    Just because as an immortal, I have all the time to waste:

    "sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
    "fit": 1.1694,
    "Italian_South": 45,
    "Lebanese_Christian": 41.67,
    "German": 12.5,
    "Polish": 0.83,

    Polish is upgraded to a whooping noise level. The point remains - the presence of German makes the Polish vanish.

    These tangents are distracting us from the point. The point is that if we plug in known ancestral populations, we may still get fairly inaccurate results. As I recall, those who argue the Aegean/South Italian narrative, still agree the North/Central Italian admixture should be in there. Therefore if omission, or choosing the wrong subregion within the same country yields grave errors in G25, then how much can we invest in models which draw upon even more widespread historical regions, giving room for even more similar errors? Consider how limited our references are for the alleged Berber contribution(s).
    Lol

    Because ‘Connor MacLeod’ in this time period there are numerous historical references to italian & Greek Jews moving up through Italy into North Italy ,these Jews would have both descended from older Romaniote Jewish populations so any non Levantine Admixture they have accumulated upto this period of time is most likely going to be Aegean Greek/Italian & Berber.
    So since Southern Italian kinda covers this combo keep it as is and add North Italian and Some Berber run it again and see what comes out %

  17. #6970
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Lol

    Because ‘Connor MacLeod’ in this time period there are numerous historical references to italian & Greek Jews moving up through Italy into North Italy ,these Jews would have both descended from older Romaniote Jewish populations so any non Levantine Admixture they have accumulated upto this period of time is most likely going to be Aegean Greek/Italian & Berber.
    So since Southern Italian kinda covers this combo keep it as is and add North Italian and Some Berber run it again and see what comes out %
    Is this what mortals are in 2019? Claudio, I'm not arguing for or against any narrative right now. I was using a narrative to demonstrate a point about G25, as opposed to using G25 to make a point about a narrative. I'm not going to make any more models for this point because their results will be irrelevant to my point, even if Polish goes up to 100% or to a reasonable %. I've already demonstrated the point. As a tangent, I asked you to show me that the Kalonymides came from South Italy/Greece - simply biographical info about that one family. In return, you allude to broader population movements and return back to arguing the Aegean narrative. It's not even a valid argument against the standard narrative - it's entirely circular. The standard narrative doesn't assume that the migration to Europe happened after the failed revolt against Heracles. It's certainly a possibility within the standard narrative. All what the standard narrative assumes is that the admixture event with South Europeans happened 35-50 generations ago. That means that whether they were in Israel or already long settled in the northern Mediterranean, they were hardly mixing with European Mediterraneans till much later. And in return, you reply by stating that they would've been admixed by this time. This is entirely circular. You're simply arguing for your thesis by effectively restating it.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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