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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #5061
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I have created an average from the two samples, I8208 and I8215 so we can use Classical Greeks (Classical West Anatolian Greeks to be exact) as a proxy.
    It is interesting to know how much homogeneous was Greek population at a time. Citizens of city-states could not intermarry foreigners, slaves or free non-citizens - those who did could not pass citizenship to their kids. And the founder population belonged to different groups of Greeks (Ionians, Aeolians, Dorians).
    So, I am not sure if Classical West Anatolian Greeks is a term that has makes some sense genetically, or it refers to some genetically mosaic population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    2. The Helots were IE-admixed just like the Spartans and the fact they were enslaved means nothing (the Romans for example enslaved basically all peoples they conquered)
    Why do you think that Helots were close genetically to Spartans? This two groups did not intermarry and likely came from genetically different founders.
    I have no specific interest in IE-admixture, the question is about genetic homogeneity of Greek population of Dark Ages/Classical Period.
    Last edited by artemv; 03-16-2019 at 03:33 AM.

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  3. #5062
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    I disagree with the methodology of mixing modern references with the ancestral ones but here are the results. Croatian is nowhere near as Steppe rich as the likes of Sintashta_MLBA and Europe_LNBA so the CHG may be inflated as a result.

    [1] "distance%=1.8978"

    Iberia_Northeast_Greek:I8215

    Peloponnese_N,64.8
    Croatian,23
    CHG,8.4
    Levant_N,3
    Ganj_Dareh_N,0.8

    [1] "distance%=2.4927"

    Iberia_Northeast_Hel:I8208

    Peloponnese_N,65.2
    Croatian,15.4
    CHG,10.4
    Levant_N,5.4
    Ganj_Dareh_N,3.6
    That is certainly a valid objection, but thanks.
    The fits are good enough, we have to wait until sample I6423 is released in a future paper.
    I6423 is a representative of an increased EHG population in Greece by the neolithic that is not related to Yamnaya origin expansions (too early).

    Hence it is a path to explain a non-Steppe related admixture for mainland origin Mycenaeans. Certainly a valid one in terms of geographic distance and time.
    Coincidentally Croatians today have the same EHG-CHG-EEF mixture ratio, hence used as proxy for I6423.

    This, indirectly, also means that middle age Slavic expansions into Greece are not exclusively the reason why today mainland Greek populations are not like ancient Greek aDNA (incl. mainland) found so far.
    We don't know from where I6423 was but I expect it to have been from a northern region. Maybe a population like that was the reason Macedonians were regarded as Barbarians/non-Greek by proper ancient Greeks. Hence that kind of population had it's fair share into shifting today mainland Greeks towards Steppe rich populations, without being ultimately Yamnaya-Steppe related.

    In this scenario I6423-like population was due to a mixture event of a EHG-EEF(ANF) population, with a CHG/Iran heavy population when these expanded towards Greece. Steppe/Yamnaya played no role.

    Such a CHG/Iran population could have been a Maykop_Novosvobodnaya-like population.
    Therefore it would be interesting to see a run with:
    Peloponnese_N as original Y-DNA G2a related population
    Croatians as I6423, representing a EHG-rich northern population, which might had R1b-R1a-I (not yet found) as Y-DNA
    Maykop_Novosvobodnaya as IE culture transmitting and Y-DNA J2a founder effect causing population
    Iran_ChL as earlier potentially non-IE related expansion of J2/J1 that caused Minoan-like population by mixing with Peloponnese_N like population.
    Levant_N as representative for Y-DNA E, a farmer population that came after Peloponnese_N/G2a

    In this scenario there is still some inconsistencies:
    Croatians for I6423 would be itself a mixture of populations that would resemble:
    A Bulgaria_LCA outlier
    Iran_ChL itself
    and minor Levant_N

    Plus Peloponnese_N would already have a extra mixture of a Iran_ChL-like population. Hence I would like to see how much Greece_N would inflate Iran_Chl/Maykop_Novosvobodnaya.



    Hence the ideal model for the non-Steppe population would look like this for the Greek colonists of (ultimately mainland) Greece origin:

    Greece_N : Oldest G2a farmers
    Bulgaria_LCA outlier : a northern farmer/hunter-gatherer population potentially bringing as newcomers R1b/R1a (Y-DNA I was probably already there from early WHG)
    Iran_ChL : early CHG/Iran related expansion, potentially Kura-Araxes/Hattic/early-IE related, bringing J2/J1 as newcomers
    Maykop_Novosvobodnaya : later Mycenaean related expansion from the east, bringing J2a and potentially first IE dialects and culture
    Levant_N : Among or shortly after G2a farmers, Levantine farmer population realted to Y-DNA E

    Excluded are potentially earlier populations like WHG origin YDNA I or H, T and L, as these had negligible genetic impact.

  4. #5063
    here is an interesting thread, since there is a lot of 23andme results of north african jews there.
    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ups-Autosomal)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wussel restbrook View Post
    here is an interesting thread, since there is a lot of 23andme results of north african jews there.
    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ups-Autosomal)
    Very good effort in that thread. I always thought Algerian and Morrocan Jews were hardly distinguishable genetically from one another, based just on early days of their mtDNA results.

    Very important to consider this before checking their results, between seeing a Libyan and Moroccan, i can confirm they scored a whooping 1/4 to 1/3 of their ancestry being supposably 'Spanish & Portuguese' therefore some of the 'Iberian' may be a relic of Berber ancestry in Moroccan/Algerian Jews.

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    I personally find MyHeritage to be quite helpful in discerning the differences genetically between what is "Greek" input in southern Italy and what is not.

    Most Sicilian results I have, from all parts of the island except Catania oddly, end up anywhere from 30-60% Greek, with typically anywhere from 20-40% combined North African/Middle Eastern/West Asian and the rest either Sardinian or Italian. Mainland Greeks score a lot of Balkan, so "Greek" is not a particularly northern shifted category.

    So what seems to be the case is that, as someone stated, Sicilians and southern Italians as well as Aegean islanders land roughly where Mycenaeans did on a PCA plot because they have been pulled both north and south by Slavic, Italic, or Germanic admixture, and back southward by Levantine and other MENA.

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    Also how should we interpret MyHeritage's "West Asian" category (which is subdivided into West Asian and into Mizrahi Jewish - Iran/Iraq)? Do Levantines score it in high amount?

    Not sure if for Sicilians we should read it as Phoenician or not HOWEVER there is a high peak of this component amongst many Sicilians I have from Palermo province which was the center of Phoenician input on the island. I've seen many people in the 20%s for this category and one as high as 33%.

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  12. #5067
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Also how should we interpret MyHeritage's "West Asian" category (which is subdivided into West Asian and into Mizrahi Jewish - Iran/Iraq)? Do Levantines score it in high amount?

    Not sure if for Sicilians we should read it as Phoenician or not HOWEVER there is a high peak of this component amongst many Sicilians I have from Palermo province which was the center of Phoenician input on the island. I've seen many people in the 20%s for this category and one as high as 33%.
    Turkish myheritage customers score West Asian at 40/50% with additional Greek % and Central Asian %
    So unless the Ancient Phoenicians came from Persia lol
    I doubt Sicilians scoring west Asian on MyHeritage represents ancient Phoenician ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Turkish myheritage customers score West Asian at 40/50% with additional Greek % and Central Asian %
    So unless the Ancient Phoenicians came from Persia lol
    I doubt Sicilians scoring west Asian on MyHeritage represents ancient Phoenician ancestry.
    I think it might represent West Asian peoples who came from either Anatolia or Mesopotamia under Byzantine rule, or Middle Eastern Christians fleeing the spread of Islam. Either way, it can get quite substantial for some Sicilians.

    I have also seen some Sicilians with evidence of Germanic input, but it is low usually. One person from Enna scores about 13% NW European on Myheritage (could be from the Gallo-Italic settlers there) for instance, but they still do get about 25% combined MENA components.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Turkish myheritage customers score West Asian at 40/50% with additional Greek % and Central Asian %
    So unless the Ancient Phoenicians came from Persia lol
    I doubt Sicilians scoring west Asian on MyHeritage represents ancient Phoenician ancestry.
    It should be added that in MyHeritage these components are based on moderns, not from real ancient Greeks, Phoenicians, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    It should be added that in MyHeritage these components are based on moderns, not from real ancient Greeks, Phoenicians, etc.
    What I want to know is how Mycenaeans score on there. Has anyone tried to add one of them, if it is even possible?

    With that said I think that we can fairly reasonably conclude that 'Greek' captures ancestry that is neither West Asian in origin nor mixed with Slavic, whereas the Phoenician, Carthaginian, Arab, Berber, and other West Asian input will be filtered through the other categories.

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