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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #10211
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeeprince View Post
    I tried your model with these added, and I get:

    Distance: 2.7378% / 0.02737758
    50.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    24.8 Levant_LBN_Roman
    15.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    8.0 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
    1.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA

    The Latini, Chinese and German samples didn't show up.
    What about Seabass' "Protoiberian"?

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     coffeeprince (07-29-2020)

  3. #10212
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    Ethnicity
    LebaGermish
    Y-DNA (P)
    P312>DF19>DF88
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a1e
    Y-DNA (M)
    J2a1 Z6065>Y7708>M47
    mtDNA (P)
    H1j

    United States of America Lebanon Germany United Kingdom Belgium Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I actually tried to add both my own self-created IA_France average from the samples once published in the aDNA French study which was published few months ago:

    FRA_IA_scaled_average,0.124750133,0.142580467,0.05 1363867,0.0294576,0.040684533,0.007808933,-0.0009242,0.004661333,0.010567,0.015550867,-0.001212333,0.0058748,-0.0160158,-0.009238933,0.0127216,-0.000115,-0.0048154,0.001748333,0.002547467,0.002284467,0.00 16138,0.002811,-0.003187933,-0.003301667,0.0013572

    And the usual DEU_MA (Medieval German) - and both do not make an appearance. However, if I take out ITA_Rome_Latini_IA, they do appear, but yield worse distance to me.

    The FRA_IA above is far closer to my dad's results than anything else in the Seabass source pool. Closer even than my mother is to the Levant samples.
    However, as in your experience, FRA_IA did not make an appearance in his results:

    Distance to: DewslothDad_scaled
    0.01975758 FRA_IA_scaled_average
    0.04981492 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109
     

    0.05099722 Iberia_North_IA:I3759
    0.05111193 Bell_Beaker_ITA:I2478
    0.05152441 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110
    0.05161850 ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
    0.05215724 ITA_Collegno_MA:CL146
    0.05459701 MedievalGermanic


    Distance to: DewslothMom_scaled
    0.02775557 Levantine
    0.02855123 Levant_Beirut_ERoman:SFI-33
     

    0.03008276 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR70
    0.03076556 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1550
    0.03114329 Levant_LBN_Roman:QED-2
    0.03211111 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR42
    0.03285177 Levant_Beirut_IAIII:SFI-47


    His results were identical with or without FRA_IA as a potential source:

     
    Target: DewslothDad_scaled
    Distance: 0.3885% / 0.00388517
    32.8 DEU_MA
    19.2 HUN_MA_Szolad
    12.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
    8.6 Iberia_East_IA
    7.4 Iberia_North_BA
    5.2 ITA_Etruscan
    4.4 Iberia_Northeast_BA
    3.8 Baltic_EST_MA
    3.0 Bell_Beaker_ITA
    2.0 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
    1.0 ITA_Collegno_MA
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  5. #10213
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Here's what my mom gets with the populations you used:

    Target: passenger_mom_scaled
    Distance: 1.8757% / 0.01875728
    37.6 Levant_LBN_Roman
    26.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    11.6 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
    9.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    8.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    5.8 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA

    Adding DEU_MA, FRA_IA or Seabass' "Medieval German" doesn't make any difference here. Once again, Chinese doesn't appear for my mom, but she doesn't often get East Asian in calcs in general.
    Considering Jews probably absorbed the majority of there Southern Euro Aegean Like Admixture between 100BC & 200AD rather than using Iberia_ North East_Empuries2 as an Aegean proxy wouldn’t it be better replaced instead with ITA_Rome_Imperial_No_Outliers?
    Last edited by Claudio; 07-30-2020 at 09:01 AM.

  6. #10214
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    What about Seabass' "Protoiberian"?
    If I add Seabass' Proto-Iberian, I lose 1.8 percent in the Empuries sample, with the 1.8% being allotted to Proto-Iberian.

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  8. #10215
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    One more version (not sure if it makes sense - obviously the time periods are mixed). England_IA shows up strong and makes the fit slightly closer. Swapping MAR_EN for Guanches and Levant_Ashkelon_IA2 for LBN_Roman makes it much closer.

    Target: passenger_mom_scaled
    Distance: 1.5170% / 0.01516971
    35.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
    33.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    10.4 England_IA
    9.6 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
    7.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    3.6 MAR_EN
    0.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA

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     Seabass (07-30-2020)

  10. #10216
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    Tried Erik's model for my mum and compared her with the Roman Imperial average. Pretty decent margin between using the Iron Age Southern Levant and Iron Age Beirut which might be the most Aegean drifted ancient Levantine average so far. Still very open to the possibility Jews may carry some Semitic DNA indirectly from proselytes outside of the Levant.

    With Levant_Ashkelon_IA2

    Target: SeabassMum
    Distance: 2.3913% / 0.02391297
    31.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    31.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
    13.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    10.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    8.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    4.4 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res

    Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial
    Distance: 1.0234% / 0.01023412
    42.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    24.0 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
    18.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    11.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    3.4 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
    1.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche


    With Levant_Beirut_IAIII


    Target: SeabassMum
    Distance: 2.3755% / 0.02375466
    45.0 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    17.8 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    16.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    8.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    8.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    3.2 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res


    Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial
    Distance: 0.8806% / 0.00880587
    35.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
    29.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    16.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
    15.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    2.6 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
    1.0 Canary_Islands_Guanche

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  12. #10217
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    Could somebody here explain to me why i have such a good fit with the Levant sample from Levant_Baqah_BA?I have modeled my self pretty much with all the Levantine samples so far,but this specific sample from Haifa fits the best for me and my familly.Do you guys modeling yourself good with this sample as well?In general i am modeling my self better with samples from modern Israel and not with those from Lebanon and Syria..

  13. #10218
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    Israel
    Ethnicity
    Sephardic Jew
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-L283
    mtDNA (M)
    X2d2

    Israel

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  15. #10219
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    Turkish
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    E-M84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themixedpenguin View Post
    I think you shouldn't have included the syrian jews because they (or at least most of them) are of sephardic origin, so they don't have iranian or assyrian ancestry as Iraqi jews(I have read that some of them have sephardic origin, but most are original Bavlim jews) or Iranian jews but Iberian.

    There are Israeli Arabs Christian on MDLP k16 which is the best calculator for west asians along with HarappaWorld
    Yeah, I chose the one that did not look Sephardic. The other one is pretty Sephardic. The non-Sephardic one like the Karaite samples in G25 sits within the Syrians in most PCA maps.

  16. #10220
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    LebaGermish
    Y-DNA (P)
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    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a1e
    Y-DNA (M)
    J2a1 Z6065>Y7708>M47
    mtDNA (P)
    H1j

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    Spanish Converso ancestry?
    My Filipino father-in-law has a Frankish/Catalan* family surname, 25% Euro ancestry but no specific known euro genealogical ancestry (it's not the last couple generations), and his top matching surnames in FTDNA family finder are Cohen, Kaplan and Rosen.

    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berengar
    Got his G25:

    Target: Dewsloth_FIL
    Distance: 0.8234% / 0.00823385 | ADC: 0.25x
    44.6 TWN_Hanben
    15.0 CHN_Qihe_N
    10.2 CHN_Liangdao1_N
    7.6 RUS_Heshui_Mohe_EMA
    4.6 CHN_Liangdao2_N
    4.6 Levant_PPNC
    3.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    2.2 CHE_FN_steppe
    2.2 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    2.0 SVK_Poprad_MA
    1.8 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES

    1.0 BRA_Botocudo
    0.8 CHN_Chuanyun_Historic
    0.2 TUR_Kumtepe_N_low_res
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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