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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #7001
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    I think that Egyptians and Anatolians undoubtedly left some mark on Western Jews, but I doubt it's anywhere near as high as some of these models suggest.

    One thing I have noticed, which I mentioned earlier, is that for whatever reason using South Italians and Sicilians instead of ancient Greek samples produces much better fits, and eliminates all of the unnecessary and illogical NW European in Western Jews.

    I think it's also not insignificant that in the new 23andMe beta updates, non-Ashkenazi Western Jews get direct matches with Sicily and Sardinia. It was also interesting that most of the MENA ancestry in non-Ashkenazi Western Jews was "broadly" while a lot of the Southern European was attributed to specific regions. What does this all mean? I don't know, but could it reflect the fact that the most of the MENA ancestry diverged from neighboring non-Jews much farther in the past than the Southern European?
    Well 23anme, let's talk it over
    Honnestly I think you should leave it aside in your arguing

    The 12 Moroccan Jews Beta results on the Sephardic thread, as well display in average
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Gedmatch/page4

    Levantine = 2,35%
    Egyptian(coptic included) = 1,7%
    Broadly Levant,Egypt,Arabian = 12,8%

    Mesopotamian 2,95%
    Cypriot = 2,1%
    Anatolian = 0,8%
    Broadly North West Asian = 7%

    North African 24%
    Ashkenazi = 3,7%

    Broad MENA = 18,4%

    Actually,the defined clusters as Levantine Egyptian, Cypriot,Mesopotamian are almost fairly equal ..around 2,3%
    Statistically speaking, it would be totally irrational to think that broadly Egypt/Levant + Broadly MENA to be 100% hidden Levantine
    In that case , yes we would get to 35% of potential Levantine while ingnoring the equal weigh of the other clusters compared to the real Levantine

    For comparison , modern Christian Levantines I've seen as Lebanese/Palestinians display 80-90% Levantine 5/10% Mesopotamian, and 5% Broad MENA
    Last edited by Bleach; 08-14-2019 at 04:05 PM.

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  3. #7002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleach View Post
    Well 23anme, let's talk it over
    Honnestly I think you should leave it aside in your arguing

    The 12 Moroccan Jews Beta results on the Sephardic thread, as well display in average
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....Gedmatch/page4

    Levantine = 2,35%
    Egyptian(coptic included) = 1,7%
    Broadly Levant,Egypt,Arabian = 12,8%

    Mesopotamian 2,95%
    Cypriot = 2,1%
    Anatolian = 0,8%
    Broadly North West Asian = 7%

    North African 24%
    Ashkenazi = 3,7%

    Broad MENA = 18,4%

    Actually,the defined clusters as Levantine Egyptian, Cypriot,Mesopotamian are almost fairly equal ..around 2,3%
    Statistically speaking, it would be totally irrational to think that broadly Egypt/Levant + Broadly MENA to be 100% hidden Levantine
    In that case , yes we would get to 35% of potential Levantine while ingnoring the equal weigh of the other clusters compared to the real Levantine

    For comparison , modern Christian Levantines I've seen as Lebanese/Palestinians display 80-90% Levantine 5/10% Mesopotamian, and 5% Broad MENA
    Christian Levantines get these percentages because they are the references used. That's my whole point. Jewish MENA ancestry (however much is Levantine specifically) is far removed from any local modern population.

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    I’m still intrigued by the Berber Admix which is shared by all western Jews.
    I know in the Roman catocombs of Rome an article stated that the origins of individuals place of birth inscriptions ranged from Judea to Alexandria to Antioch but they stated especially Cyrenaica.
    So We know Cyrenaican Jews had already been present in Italy 300 years prior to Kitos war.
    After Kitos War Jews of Libya are completely expulsed.
    There’s evidence that they moved to Join Egyptian,Anatolian,Syrian Jewry populations,Alexandria,Antioch,Tarsus, so Hellenistic Jewish population centers outside Judea so could they seriously be a legitimate candidate for the uniformly shared Berber Admixture amongst all western Jews?
    Last edited by Claudio; 08-14-2019 at 06:09 PM.

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  7. #7004
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    I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting very antsy for some ancient Jewish samples so we can resolve some of these questions already. Just a few from any period would be a YHWHsend at this point.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting very antsy for some ancient Jewish samples so we can resolve some of these questions already. Just a few from any period would be a YHWHsend at this point.
    Yes, there's only so much we can do with the current paucity of data (and absence of ancient Jewish samples in particular). I'm not too sure a few samples will resolve some of the questions we're asking, I think what is needed is a broad study of ancient Jewish samples throughout the Mediterranean and (if possible) the Near East, only that kind of methodology will provide definitive answers, anything less than that is more likely to muddy the waters.

    It's best to keep an open mind anyway, my position is that we cannot truly know at this stage, only suspect. There are pros and cons to both the Italian and Aegean models, I'd argue the former still seems to be the most robust from a genetic standpoint but this might change if some of the stuff I've seen from the upcoming study on Ancient Rome is confirmed, the latter OTOH clearly makes the most sense from a historical standpoint that being said there are numerous ways this might not fit with the genetic data (there are good reasons not to draw conclusions from contemporary data).
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristin.../#7ecd8a23f9eb



    Seems like our best shot at ancient Jewish remains in the near future.
    In the past, several skeletons had been left in place to demonstrate what these ancient burials looked like, but unfortunately, Mercieca-Spiteri said, "people were stealing bones from the catacombs.
    Why isn't this a UNESCO protected site and why aren't hands being chopped off? Then again, the UN is useless. If you recall, contamination was a major issue with the shroud of Turin. How many such bones do they expect to find? Sure, contamination is harder here, but wait for the claims that the bones were switched etc - especially if the remains are a close match to modern Jews.
    Last edited by StillWater; 08-15-2019 at 12:32 AM.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Why isn't this a UNESCO protected site and why aren't hands being chopped off? Then again, the UN is useless. If you recall, contamination was a major issue with the shroud of Turin. How many such bones do they expect to find? Sure, contamination is harder here, but wait for the claims that the bones were switched etc - especially if the remains are a close match to modern Jews.
    Don't be so hard on the UN, it stands for Useless Nations after all
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    I just re-uploaded my mom's kit on My True Ancestry and she got some interesting new results and way more deep matches than she had before.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....152#post594152

    I wonder if there are Gedmatch kits for the new Iberian samples.

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