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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #10321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    I guess that all depends on how MENA Southern Italians & Sicilians plotted during the Imperial Roman era in comparison to today.
    Although for your scenario to be applicable it would insinuate that the Imperial era Ancestor population of Western Jews were Imperial era Roman Southern Italians who practiced Judaism.
    Alternatively if italian & iberian peninsula Jewish populations shrank during the early rise of Christianity,migrations of Greek Speaking Jews of closer proximity(Cyrenaica/Alexandria) could have supplemented then eventually replaced those Jewish communities leaving us with a North African admixed Ancestral Western Jewish population.
    Actually, a lot could depend, even in a city like Rome, on the neighbourhood the proselytes came from. Like if the Jewish community was centered in Rome or a similarly diverse city, they could have made contacts to ethnicities of the empire and even people living outside of its borders, without ever leaving the city. The proselytes must not be representative for the average population, they too could have been recent immigrants, traders, female slaves and so on. There are many cases of specified social groups converting, while the local majority didn't, not just in the case of Judaism, that's true for many religious groups.

  2. #10322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I noticed with this model below that 'Natufian' stubbornly appears for most Western Jews, yet interestingly doesn't really for Samaritans and majority of non-Jewish East-Mediterraneans and Christian/Druze/Karaite Near Easterners. Also shows up for ancient Egyptians and Muslim Levantine-Arabs, Egyptians and really just the Libyans and no other North Africans. I know the Alexandrian Jewish community was very Hellenized but I havn't read too much of them absorbing local Egyptian people of that time. Is that a possibly explanation?

    Attachment 40151

    Lack of 'Natufian' in North Africans

    Attachment 40152
    Did you notice how high Levant Natufian Sicily East scores in comparison to the rest of South Italy & West Sicily??
    Last edited by Claudio; 10-17-2020 at 09:44 AM.

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  4. #10323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Is the Chalcolothic Anatolian AVG able to tell us anything meaningful about DNA structure among East-Mediterraneans, or are they really just a dead-end population? I do really like how the model below hints at the extent in which Western Jews may have non-Southern European (Barcin, Yamnaya, WHG) and Mediterranean admixture. (from outside Anatolia) When I removed the outliers from ITA_Rome_Imperial, it's results resembled more ITA_Collegno_O1. Minor North African admixture also accounts possibly for 1/4 of the Barcin_N the North African Jews score I think.

    Attachment 40153
    The Subsaharan scored on Eurogens K13 By Western Jews?
    Is there a pattern of distribution level?
    Last edited by Claudio; 10-17-2020 at 12:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Did you notice how high Levant Natufian Sicily East scores in comparison to the rest of South Italy & West Sicily??
    Unfortunately, almost all Natufian and PPN samples are very low coverage, which is why I sometimes don't include them when I make models. These are some models for southern Italy:

    EEF GANJ_DAREH CHG ANE WHG TAFORALT
    Ajeje_Brazorf 60.4 14.2 11.8 5.8 4.4 3.4
    Italian_Campania 59.8 14.4 11.8 7.6 3.8 2.6
    Italian_Apulia 59.6 11.8 14.0 8.2 4.4 2.0
    Italian_Abruzzo 59.4 11.6 13.0 9.4 5.0 1.6
    Italian_Molise 59.4 10.4 14.4 10.0 4.8 1.0
    Italian_Basilicata 59.2 12.4 13.8 8.2 4.2 2.2
    Italian_Calabria 59.0 14.2 13.2 7.0 3.2 3.4
    Sicilian_East 58.6 13.0 12.8 7.2 4.8 3.6
    Maltese 57.2 14.0 9.8 8.2 4.2 6.6
    Sicilian_West 56.4 14.2 10.4 7.2 7.2 4.6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Unfortunately, almost all Natufian and PPN samples are very low coverage, which is why I sometimes don't include them when I make models. These are some models for southern Italy:

    EEF GANJ_DAREH CHG ANE WHG TAFORALT
    Ajeje_Brazorf 60.4 14.2 11.8 5.8 4.4 3.4
    Italian_Campania 59.8 14.4 11.8 7.6 3.8 2.6
    Italian_Apulia 59.6 11.8 14.0 8.2 4.4 2.0
    Italian_Abruzzo 59.4 11.6 13.0 9.4 5.0 1.6
    Italian_Molise 59.4 10.4 14.4 10.0 4.8 1.0
    Italian_Basilicata 59.2 12.4 13.8 8.2 4.2 2.2
    Italian_Calabria 59.0 14.2 13.2 7.0 3.2 3.4
    Sicilian_East 58.6 13.0 12.8 7.2 4.8 3.6
    Maltese 57.2 14.0 9.8 8.2 4.2 6.6
    Sicilian_West 56.4 14.2 10.4 7.2 7.2 4.6
    You don't have to model them with Paleolithic and Neolithic references just use BA/IA and later Levantine samples to estimate this specific admixture. It is better to model modern pops with samples from BA/IA classical and medieval periods.

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  9. #10326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    This kind of North African ancestry was also present in many Roman provinces, especially Southern Italy and Sicily. I don't think its necessary for the ancestors of the Western Jews to have gone through North Africa. Doesn't mean its not possible, but its not necessary to explain the observed pattern imho.
    Actually I’ve found some evidence which may contradict your observation.
    Found this paper:
    Attachment 40388
    Discusses Subsaharan Gene flow and when was mediated into historical populations.
    Basically has Subsaharan Gene flow estimation of 55generations ago for Italy coinciding when North Africa was an extension of the Roman Italian peninsula.
    Levantines at something like 30 generations ago coinciding with Arab Conquest of Levant Gene flow.
    But has an estimate of 72 generations ago for Ashkenazim,Sephardim,Mizrahi Jews,theorized in the discussion as perhaps absorbed through the huge Alexandrian Jewish population.
    Anyway the way I see it if Western Jew evolved in Roman Southern Italy you would expect Western Jews to share the admixture Gene flow events of 55 generations ago experience by Roman italians.
    But since there date is estimated 72 generations ago this would Contradict this and add more credence to the Western Jewish Ancestor population being Greek Speaking Jews of Alexandria & Cyrenaica that already had North African admixture.
    Last edited by Claudio; 10-18-2020 at 10:01 AM.

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  11. #10327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Did you notice how high Levant Natufian Sicily East scores in comparison to the rest of South Italy & West Sicily??
    I did notice this with the Eastern Sicily average, but a couple reasons why I think my observation still stands. Firstly, the Eastern Sicilian sample is only composed of 3 individuals. Secondly, in compensating for that excessive Natufian score, the Eastern Sicilian average scores nil Levant Neolithic as opposed to all other Southern Italians. This is just an anamoly to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    The Subsaharan scored on Eurogens K13 By Western Jews?
    Is there a pattern of distribution level?
    Seeing just the SSA and East African score of only Ashkenazi and Eastern Sephardic Jews, this may reflect in that test (does not have a NW African component) both their Semitic origin and trace or minor Berber.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...QG0/edit#gid=0

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  13. #10328
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    You Megathread folks might be interested in these two charts:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post711260
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  15. #10329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    You Megathread folks might be interested in these two charts:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post711260
    It is fascinating, isn't it? It shows 3 apparent clusters for the Continuum populations, all separate from the rest of Europe. The clusters themselves don't make intuitive sense as to how they group to me. I will speak about the Greek samples, and you can clearly see Smyrna, Kos, and Crete samples appearing in all 3 clusters (while on typical G25 PCAs, the samples from these regions tend to cluster with fellow samples from the same region (exceptions of course) and even a Thessaly (mainland) sample appears in the cluster closest to most of the Cypriots.
    Last edited by Greekscholar; 10-21-2020 at 12:00 AM.

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