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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #8931
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocoholic View Post
    I’m guessing we have a common Sephardic ancestor since a lot of Portuguese Jews fled to Britain).
    sorry but no Portuguese Jews fled to Britain. In the mid 17th century Dutch Portugese Jews were allowed to settle in England (Cromwell-Menasseh ben Israel).

    When someone is looking for Western (you mean Christian Europe?) Jewish origins, he has to be aware of history. Initially so called Portugese jews could officially settle as jews only in the Netherlands and in Hamburg and as new christians in Bayonne region. Later they moved to Dutch colonies (USA, Curaçao, Suriname, Indonesia) and to England. A parallel settlement history occured in Italy, such as in trade cities Ancona, Livorne, Genoa etc. Later some italian jews moved to Netherlands and England due to economic opportunities but their origin often can be traced by their surname.
    Last edited by eolien; 01-15-2020 at 08:36 AM.

  2. #8932
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    Sorry this isn't related to the current topic - but I just plotted all my chromosomes on the K15 plot, if anyone is interested.

    Red dot is my 'complete' results.

    https://imgur.com/hQehe7B
    Other Y-DNA:

    Maternal 6X Great Grandfather J1-ZS10441

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  4. #8933
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    OK, got my mom's G25 coordinates. I'm not very good with this kind of stuff, so if anyone has any suggestions or feels like doing runs with them, feel free!
    PassengerWithSJs.JPG
    PassengerWithLJs.JPG
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Seabass; 01-15-2020 at 10:26 AM.

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  6. #8934
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    OK, got my mom's G25 coordinates. I'm not very good with this kind of stuff, so if anyone has any suggestions or feels like doing runs with them, feel free!

    ,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
    passenger_mom_scaled,0.09675,0.14319,-0.011314,-0.052649,0.004308,-0.015897,0.000705,0.000462,0.009204,0.016766,-0.004547,3e-04,0.012636,-0.001101,-0.004207,0.002254,0.003129,-0.00152,-0.006285,-0.002626,-0.006239,-0.007543,0.002958,-0.001928,0.001916

    ,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
    passenger_mom,0.0085,0.0141,-0.003,-0.0163,0.0014,-0.0057,0.0003,0.0002,0.0045,0.0092,-0.0028,0.0002,0.0085,-0.0008,-0.0031,0.0017,0.0024,-0.0012,-0.005,-0.0021,-0.005,-0.0061,0.0024,-0.0016,0.0016

    Target: passenger_mom_scaled
    Distance: 1.7652% / 0.01765193 | ADC: 0.5x
    68.8 Ashkenazi_Germany
    22.4 Ashkenazi_Poland
    5.4 Moroccan_Jew
    3.4 Syrian_Jew
    Using a model I made from a while back:
    Target: passenger_mom_scaled
    Distance: 1.6970% / 0.01696957
    46.8 Middle_East
    43.0 Southern_Europe
    9.6 North_African
    0.6 Eastern_Europe
    Other Y-DNA:

    Maternal 6X Great Grandfather J1-ZS10441

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  8. #8935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Also, @Claudio, per your premise, and ben Matityahu specifically - you must remember that while he was a traitor to our people and a Flavius till he died, he was also an observant Pharisee Jew and a Cohen, meaning he wouldn't be part of the Hellenistic Jewish sect. He might had a superficial acquaintance with them considering he lived in Rome after his part in the Great Revolt, but nothing close to his inner knowledge of the aristocratic priestly Sadducees nor to the sect of his choice which was Pharisee Judaism or the radical Zealots which he was serving with and commanding over in his role as supreme commander of northern armed forces during the Great Revolt.

    I think we need to see some early Roman era Jewish samples , specifically from Hellenistic Jewish centers where there is obvious signs of integration such as the synagogue in Sardis, Anatolia (which had a Greco-Roman gymnasium adjacent to it).

    P.S.
    The community Flavius Josephus mentions is that of Sardis. He noted that Caius Norbanus Flaccus, a Roman proconsul at the end of the 1st century BCE, upheld the rights of Sardis Jews to practice their religion, including the right to donate to the Temple in Jerusalem.
    Before he sadly left us (Sikeliot) Was convinced there was some type of West Asian/Anatolian component eating into the Aegean needed in modeling Ashkenazim compared to Sephardim etc,think it could be in Ashkenazim from these Ancient Anatolian communities?
    Last edited by Claudio; 01-15-2020 at 01:08 PM.

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  10. #8936
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    By "him" I take you refer to Claudio?

    "“Caius Norbanus Flaccus, proconsul, To the magistrates of the Sardians, sendeth greeting. Cesar hath written to me, and commanded me not to forbid the Jews, how many soever they be, from assembling together, according to the custom of their forefathers; nor from sending their money to Jerusalem. I have therefore written to you, that you may know that both Cesar and I would have you act accordingly.”
    -Antiquities of the Jews — Book XVI, Chapter 6:6



    Also obviously Flavius Josephus is a problematic historical source, other than his obvious agendas, he's also known to exaggerate on many cases.
    Who knows?
    Stillwater often refers to himself in the third person!
    (Thinks he's Floyd Mayweather)
    Last edited by Claudio; 01-15-2020 at 01:05 PM.

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  12. #8937
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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    sorry but no Portuguese Jews fled to Britain. In the mid 17th century Dutch Portugese Jews were allowed to settle in England (Cromwell-Menasseh ben Israel).
    It does not mean no New Christians fled to Britain bypassing the Netherlands later. The D'Aguilar family is an example of that. The first fled directly to Britain. On 23andme, I have found a gentile person of British ancestry who traced her ancestry back to this family:

    Baron Diego Lopes Pereira d'Aguilar (born 1699 Portugal; died 10 August 1759, London) was an Austro-English Jewish businessman, community leader and philanthropist, originally a Portuguese converso, who lived in the 18th century. [...] In 1722 he went from Lisbon to London, and then to Vienna. From 1725 to 1747 he held the tobacco monopoly in Austria, and had the power to establish factories and regulate prices. [...] He left Vienna suddenly in 1749, because the Spanish government demanded his extradition. He went to London. Before leaving Vienna he presented the community which he had founded, as well as the Spanish-Jewish community of Temesvar, with beautiful silver crowns for the scrolls of the Law, upon which his name was inscribed. On the Day of Atonement a prayer is still said for the repose of his soul by the Turco-Jewish community of Vienna. [...] He married, 1722, Donna Simha da Fonseca (died 1755) and had issue including Ephraim Lópes Pereira d'Aguilar, 2nd Baron d'Aguilar.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_...ra_d%27Aguilar

    Jacob de Castro Sarmento is another example:

    Jacob Henriques de Castro Sarmento (1692 in Bragança, Portugal – 14 September 1762 in London) was a Portuguese estrangeirado, physician, naturalist, poet and Deist.

    At the age of seventeen he entered the University of Évora to study philosophy, and later studied medicine at Coimbra, receiving his baccalaureate in 1717. In order to escape the persecutions of the Portuguese Inquisition, Henrique — so-called as a Marrano — went into voluntary exile in London in 1720. There he continued his studies in medicine, physics, and chemistry, and passed his examinations in the theory and practice of medicine. He became a member of the Royal College of Physicians and was elected a fellow of the Royal Society of London in 1730, in recognition of his having introduced a new medicine for curing fevers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_de_Castro_Sarmento

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  14. #8938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Who knows?
    Stillwater often refers to himself in the third person!
    (Thinks he's Floyd Mayweather)
    May Floyd Mayweather be so lucky.
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

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  16. #8939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Looks like she fits comfortably within the ranges for both Ashkenazim and Sephardim in these samples, except her GEO_CHG is on the low end for Sephardim and Yamnaya on the high end, putting her closer to the Ashkenazim.

    I'm sure this has already been debated here, but at the risk of being redundant I'll ask anyway. What markers tend to set Sephardim apart from Ashkenazim, and Eastern Sephardim apart from North African Sephardim (knowing of course that there may be a broad spectrum of results within any of those categories and overlap between all of them)? I'm wondering, for instance, why my mother was given such a relatively high percentage of NA Sephardic on MyHeritage (25.6%), when at first glance it doesn't appear that she has levels of anything in particular that set her apart from Ashkenazi averages. Her 66% Ashkenazi on MH is lower than her paper trail, and correlates with mine, which is similarly low (28.7% on MH - in the range of 28-32% from other tests I've done). Of course I'm not taking MyHeritage results as gospel by any means, and realize they are comparing her with modern samples, but it would be interesting to see if the patterns they detect in their modern database have any correlation in anything farther back.

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  18. #8940
    Quote Originally Posted by Piquerobi View Post
    It does not mean no New Christians fled to Britain bypassing the Netherlands later. The D'Aguilar family is an example of that. The first fled directly to Britain. On 23andme, I have found a gentile person of British ancestry who traced her ancestry back to this family:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_...ra_d%27Aguilar

    Jacob de Castro Sarmento is another example:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_de_Castro_Sarmento
    That’s what I was referring to, with New Christians going to Britain. I also read that before Cromwell’s religious policies were implemented, there were crypto-Portuguese Jews who lived in Britain as well. So anything’s possible, really.

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