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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #5151
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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    when I try to repeat your test, I realized that taking average test populations is misleading. Therefore I repeated it with individual samples

    the fit scores are not very good. but somehow my score comes out as best. penalty=0 (advised by eurogenes blog recently)

    I think a problem with using just individuals is, as is clear from these results, that people within the same small population can vary dramatically. I'm 100% Ashkenazi. My parents are both 100% Ashkenazi. Yet I get North African levels comparable to Italian or Sephardi Jews, and generally very elevated Western European. My dad gets even higher North African and very elevated Eastern European. The fact that in this model one Italian Jew gets 56% Druze while another gets 23% tells me that looking at individuals can be misleading when describing the larger population.

    8SvI6c8.jpg

    (Obviously not a perfect model, but demonstrates my point.)
    Last edited by jonahst; 04-16-2019 at 05:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    when I try to repeat your test, I realized that taking average test populations is misleading. Therefore I repeated it with individual samples

    the fit scores are not very good. but somehow my score comes out as best. penalty=0 (advised by eurogenes blog recently)
    I overall prefer looking at population averages for reasons similar to what Jonahst gave above.

    Just to make myself clear, I only used a three way model of Italian Abruzzi, Lebanese Druze and Mozabites because I just wanted to get a very simplistic overall picture as to how my mum might differentiate from Jewish population averages, NOT because I think Western Jews are just Levantine, Italian and North African only. I used Lebanese Druze as I thought they are a good modern population which could capture a potentially diverse range of Near Eastern DNA in Western Jews, ie Levantine, Anatolian and maybe to a far lesser extent Mesopatamian. I used the Italian Abruzzi because I thought they could account for mostly Mediterranean European DNA in Western Jews extending from Iberia to pre-Slavic influenced Greece.

    Quote Originally Posted by eolien View Post
    However when I add all the possible north africans, Mozabite is clearly not preferred although the fit is not much improved.
    I did notice the Berber Tunisian Chenni tribe seem to be the best favoured modern population source of North African DNA in Western Jews. I found that interesting as they are not as Greek drifted as North Morrocans but they happen to be a modern berber tribe in the global 25 sheet with the lowest affinity to Sub Saharan Africans. Not surprised Sephardic Jews compared with Italqim and Romaniotes could show additional subtle extra North African admixture from the far west Maghreb.

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  5. #5153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I overall prefer looking at population averages for reasons similar to what Jonahst gave above.

    Just to make myself clear, I only used a three way model of Italian Abruzzi, Lebanese Druze and Mozabites because I just wanted to get a very simplistic overall picture as to how my mum might differentiate from Jewish population averages, NOT because I think Western Jews are just Levantine, Italian and North African only. I used Lebanese Druze as I thought they are a good modern population which could capture a potentially diverse range of Near Eastern DNA in Western Jews, ie Levantine, Anatolian and maybe to a far lesser extent Mesopatamian. I used the Italian Abruzzi because I thought they could account for mostly Mediterranean European DNA in Western Jews extending from Iberia to pre-Slavic influenced Greece.



    I did notice the Berber Tunisian Chenni tribe seem to be the best favoured modern population source of North African DNA in Western Jews. I found that interesting as they are not as Greek drifted as North Morrocans but they happen to be a modern berber tribe in the global 25 sheet with the lowest affinity to Sub Saharan Africans. Not surprised Sephardic Jews compared with Italqim and Romaniotes could show additional subtle extra North African admixture from the far west Maghreb.

    I think you are referring to Arauna et al. 2017. According to that publication, Chenni represents the best North African component per se. Therefore preference of Chenni vs other North African group is not by chance.

    I don't want to comment further to use of average populations as test sample. I think it is simply wrong and less informative. Average makes sense if the samples are rather homogenous. On the other hand, I think you are aware that reference populations are not averages because nMonte chooses individuals from that group. In fact i can reduce my sample to one Druze individual and one Abruzzo individual without a decrease in the fitness score.

    historically we have to think what happened to Alexandria and Antioch jewish populations. It is not far fetched to think that part of Alexandria moved to Northern Africa and part of Antioch became Druze.

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  7. #5154
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
    The Slavic component in Greeks (mainland) is from the 7th century on so I wouldn't think it had anything to do with Greek genetic influence in Italy which was many years before (Golden Age on).
    There are a minority of southern Italians (mostly Apulians, Lucanians, and some parts of southeastern Sicily) where there are elevated "Baltic" scores on various GEDmatch calculators. I could only imagine that this is the result of recent (post-Slavic) Greek input into the population.

    With that said, the Greek category is scored by people from all parts of Sicily, it's fairly universal as is the Italian category. The difference is some Sicilians score high MENA and others do not. This suggests that Sicilians are, of course, a mixture of pre-Slavic Greeks, Italics, and various levels of MENA.

    Claudio's suggestion that the people from Catania score less Greek is because of lower Balto-Slavic DNA there cannot be the reason because Balto-Slavic DNA in Sicily is even lower in Messina and most of Palermo provinces but significant Greek is scored in those places.

    Rather, Greeks with a higher Slavic input will score higher "Balkan" which captures their Slavic. And some Aegean islanders score high "Italian" too.
    Last edited by Sikeliot; 04-16-2019 at 01:43 PM.

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    EDIT: MyHeritage changed "Greek" now to "Greek and South Italian!"

    It is no longer just Greek. But the other Italian category which clearly is of more northern origin remained "Italian".

    So this issue has now gone away. Yet, all my Sicilian matches have not had their percentages changed. So you have Sicilians now who come up a mixture of "Greek and South Italian," "West Asian," "Italian," "North African" etc.

    So now you'll have Greeks coming up a mixture of that category and "Balkan".

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    Wishing those celebrating Passover a sweet one: chag pesach sameach! חַג פֶּסַח שָׂמֵחַ

    Happy Easter to those Christians celebrating this weekend, and to Orthodox Christians for next weekend. Καλη Ανασταση!

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