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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #3701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    But a population very similar to Samaritans auDNA speaking possibly.
    Lebanese christian could be also .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    But a population very similar to Samaritans auDNA speaking possibly.
    Yes, but they are also extremely endogenous - so there should be significant genetic drift.

    By the way, their genetic make up - roughly identical to Bronze Age Levantines - stands in sharp contrast to both of our ancestor's (mine as in Jewish bible and yours as in Assyrian writings) ethnogenesis narrative of the Samaritans, and pretty much gives credibility to their own narrative.

    P.S.
    In a slightly more humorous tone, you gotta love the fact that an Assyrian discusses the ethnogenesis of Samaritans .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    P.S.
    In a slightly more humorous tone, you gotta love the fact that an Assyrian discusses the ethnogenesis of Samaritans .

    Honestly it's the only interesting discussion around here not poisoned by the IE/Steppe/R1b/R1a dilemma. If we get more aDNA from Siberia when we know next to nothing about the ancient Med and Near East I might actually lose it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post

    [CODE]

    And Cypriots:

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=1.6138"
    
             Cypriot
    
    Levant_BA_North,50
    Mycenaean,32.8
    Armenia_MLBA,10.6
    Anatolia_IA,6.6
    I put my own coordinates into a Global25 nMonte calculator and got:

    Distance 1.4845

    Levant BA north 42
    Mycenaean 40.83
    Armenia MLBA 16.67
    Anatolia IA 0

    Is that not quite a discrepancy or am I using different parameters? Not sure how to calculate single item distance. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    I put my own coordinates into a Global25 nMonte calculator and got:

    Distance 1.4845

    Levant BA north 42
    Mycenaean 40.83
    Armenia MLBA 16.67
    Anatolia IA 0

    Is that not quite a discrepancy or am I using different parameters? Not sure how to calculate single item distance. Thanks.
    Are you using nMonte 2 or 3?

    In any case - we've already discussed that IMO, Davidski's Global25 reference group for Cypriots are slightly more Levantine than most of the kits I've seen on GEDmatch. This is consistent with what you go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I've been reading some more about the ancient Roman Jewish community, particularly in the time period of 1st to 4th centuries AD, to find some connection with the Hellenistic, Greek speaking communities.

    For example, we already know that South Italy had Greek speaking and Romaniote well until Norman conquest of the South Italy. We know that the Italkim rite derives from and show most resemblance to the Romaniote rite.

    But it also seems that the most ancient synagogues in Italy, were found in South Italy, for example the The Bova Marina Synagogue, which was built in the 4th century with renovations dating to the 6th century. The synagogue is a basilica-style building that resembles the Byzantine synagogues of the Galilee, which I've shown here previously.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bova_Marina_Synagogue

    Also, fascinating enough, we can see the process of swtiching from mostly Greek to Latin in the Jewish Catacombs in Rome itself:



    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/catacombs

    So until about the 4th century AD, most Jews living in Rome were of Greek, or Hellenistic background, and based on the ancient remains of synagogues in South Italy, it seems logical they've first arrived there, then migrated north. Some probably arrived directly to Rome from the East Mediterranean, since it was the main city of the Roman Empire.
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah-Theodora
    she was empress of bulgaria
    she was of romaniote jewish origin { given that back than sefhardic jews were not yet arrived to bulgaria}
    later she converted to orthodox religion
    Last edited by kingjohn; 10-11-2018 at 03:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    By the way, their genetic make up - roughly identical to Bronze Age Levantines - stands in sharp contrast to both of our ancestor's (mine as in Jewish bible and yours as in Assyrian writings) ethnogenesis narrative of the Samaritans, and pretty much gives credibility to their own narrative.
    Not exactly. Their ethnogenesis narrative is, like that of the Jews, that they are a Mesopotamian/Aramean hybrid with some later Egyptian admixture that invaded and conquered Canaan, not that they are native Canaanites who differentiated themselves from their (genetically-identical) Canaanite neighbors via religion/culture.

    The latter is the modern academic narrative.

    As far as I know, though I might be wrong, the Samaritan Bible doesn't even include references to extensive intermixing between Israelites and Canaanites like the Hebrew/Jewish Bible does in later books.
    Last edited by jonahst; 10-11-2018 at 04:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Not exactly. Their ethnogenesis narrative is, like that of the Jews, that they are a Mesopotamian/Aramean hybrid with some later Egyptian admixture that invaded and conquered Canaan, not that they are native Canaanites who differentiated themselves from their (genetically-identical) Canaanite neighbors via religion/culture.
    I meant that they claim they are descendants of the Israelites, without being half Arabian or כותים - Kutim. I think it's safe to say Israelite would probably be mostly Iron Age Levant.

    As far as I know, though I might be wrong, the Samaritan Bible doesn't even include references to extensive intermixing between Israelites and Canaanites like the Hebrew/Jewish Bible does in later books.
    As I work within a walking distance from the Samaritan neighborhood in Holon, I might just stop by on my way back home to buy some groceries and start a small talk on this issue with one of the Samaritan shopkeepers .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targum View Post
    The latter conclusion was unknown to me. Given the late Roman Halakhic barrier to marriage with "Kuthim", how do you think, this scenario of assimilation of individual Samaritans might have happened without conversion, once it was decreed that they are goyim gemurim? I am genuinely intrigued by how this may have occurred, especially in light of today's examples of Samaritan-to-Jew (like actress Sophie Tsadka), or Jew-to-Samaritan (like the Jewish wives coming in one at a time starting 20th century)?
    Given the nature of the evidence so far, it seems we're mainly dealing with Samaritan men who joined the Jewish people. The earliest possible occurrence of such a phenomenon was under the Hasmoneans, who forcibly converted Samaritans to Judaism and destroyed their temple on Har Gerizim (this was the main source of Samaritan bitterness towards the Jews throughout antiquity). Regarding the Samaritan diaspora, I think the categorisation of Samaritans as gentiles in the Talmud was enacted specifically because most of the Samaritan communities were being assimilated into the Jewish diaspora, in fact I read a book last year on Jewish-Samaritan relations subject which deals with this shift (I strongly recommend it):

    "Yet, as we have seen in previous chapters, the mutual animosity marking relations at the turn of the era had not always characterized interactions between the two groups. There was, in fact, much that Yahwistic Judeans and Yahwistic Samarians shared in common during earlier periods of Israelite and Judean history in spite of some important differences between them. Their languages were nearly identical and their material cultures, beliefs, and religious rites were quite similar. 3 Both communities had cooperated to some extent in composing and editing a common corpus of foundational religious literatures (the Pentateuch). Both groups acknowledged, albeit in different ways, that their priesthoods shared a common progenitor (Aaron). Both had come to embrace the Deuteronomic doctrine of cultic centralization—the abolition of all non-Yahwistic sanctuaries in the land and the localization of Yahwistic sacrifice at only one divinely designated cultic site—even if they strongly differed as to precisely where that centralized system of sacrifices was to occur (Mt. Gerizim vs. Mt. Zion). Both groups became international in nature, with diasporic communities in other lands. To serve the needs of Jews and Samaritans during Hellenistic times, in particular those expatriates residing in the Egyptian diaspora, the Pentateuch was translated into Greek ( Joosten forthcoming).4

    [...]

    Confirmation of deepening mutual mistrust and aversion appears in Jewish religious sources. Schiffman (1985) points to a notable shift in the attitudes of Jewish sages toward the Samaritans between the time of the Tannaim (early sages) of the early 2nd century and the times of the later Tannaim (mid-to-late 2nd century) and the Amoraim (later sages; 3rd–5th centuries CE). The former (the early Tannaim) are fairly accepting of the Samaritans, regarding them as if they were Jews or semi-Jews. The latter speak of the Samaritans as having become corrupted or as non-Jews. 20 The distinction is illustrated by the diametrically opposed views of Rabban ben Gamaliel, who taught that a Samaritan is like a Jew in all respects, and Rabbi Judah the Prince (הנשיא) , who taught that a Samaritan is like a non-Jew ( t. Ter. 4:12, 14). Considering that Simeon II ben Gamaliel II was the father of Rabbi Judah the Prince, who became prominent in the post-Hadrianic period, one cannot help but notice an important shift in opinion. In the later Babylonian Talmud, an additional step may be discerned in that Samaritans could be considered unquestionably as Gentiles (b . H . ul. 6a; Kippenberg 1971: 94–98).
    The views cited in these literary sources are quite revealing, because they indicate that even during the 1st century and the early 2nd century, the time during which most of the incidents reviewed above occurred, the Samaritans were (still) considered by at least some rabbis as Jews. Yet over time the Samaritans were deemed to have been corrupted. The Samaritans went from being Jews and semi-Jews to being considered as non-Jews.

    [...]

    In dealing with the early Roman period, it is important to recall that neither of the two groups (the Samaritans and the Jews) comprised homogenous, tightly knit social unities. Neither was completely dominated religiously, as far as we know, by any one central hierarchical authority. That a large number of Jews and Samaritans resided in diasporic communities in Syria, Egypt, and elsewhere made life difficult for anyone who desired to impose any standard of uniformity upon the whole. There were serious differences of class, social standing, and political orientation (Goodman 2008). Religiously, some Jews and Samaritans were clearly much more traditional and conservative than others. To what degree attitudes differed among urban elites and rural villagers is also at issue."


    -Jews and Samaritans, The Origins and History of Their Early Relations; Gary N. Knoppers (p.218-226)

    This view of the Samaritans as "half-Jews" is also encountered in Josephus and other Jewish sources of the time. So it's doubtful that there was a conversion process, the assimilation of the Samaritan diaspora into the Jewish one was probably very swift, which in turn could explain why the shift regarding their Jewishness was so brutal.

    The modern conversion of Samaritans (mostly women) who leave the community is done under the parameters of contemporary Rabbinical conversion standards, though this process is less constraining for Samaritans (whose laws are by and large near-identical to those of Rabbinical Judaism). None of that really existed during the Roman period (at best, these standards were emerging).

    Quote Originally Posted by hartaisarlag View Post
    Syrian and Dutch? Do elaborate.
    Off the top of my head: The Samaritan Marhiv family (which claims descent from the tribe of Ephraim) is J1-FGC30542, this branch of J1-Z640 is also found among Syrian and Dutch Jews (of Sephardic origin). The TMRCA for this branch is roughly ~2500 years old, this is comparable to many other typically Jewish lineages (just this one isn't Jewish, it happens to be Samaritan). The Marhiv family has its roots in Gaza's Samaritan community IIRC.

    I could give other examples of the sort.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Not exactly. Their ethnogenesis narrative is, like that of the Jews, that they are a Mesopotamian/Aramean hybrid with some later Egyptian admixture that invaded and conquered Canaan, not that they are native Canaanites who differentiated themselves from their (genetically-identical) Canaanite neighbors via religion/culture.

    The latter is the modern academic narrative.

    As far as I know, though I might be wrong, the Samaritan Bible doesn't even include references to extensive intermixing between Israelites and Canaanites like the Hebrew/Jewish Bible does in later books.
    Yes, but keep in mind that the Samaritan "Bible" is just the Samaritan pentateuch. The Tolidah and the Samaritan Book of Joshua do describe intermarriage between Israelites and Canaanites. These texts are interesting because to a large extent, they reflect the traditions of the northern kingdom of Israel.

    By the way, if you're interested in Samaritan manuscripts, the British Library has digitised several of the Samaritan manuscripts in its collection, this is real treasure trove, here's an 18th century Samaritan pentateuch for example:

    http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer....s_19013_fs001r
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 10-11-2018 at 09:54 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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