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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #3701
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    I've been reading some more about the ancient Roman Jewish community, particularly in the time period of 1st to 4th centuries AD, to find some connection with the Hellenistic, Greek speaking communities.

    For example, we already know that South Italy had Greek speaking and Romaniote well until Norman conquest of the South Italy. We know that the Italkim rite derives from and show most resemblance to the Romaniote rite.

    But it also seems that the most ancient synagogues in Italy, were found in South Italy, for example the The Bova Marina Synagogue, which was built in the 4th century with renovations dating to the 6th century. The synagogue is a basilica-style building that resembles the Byzantine synagogues of the Galilee, which I've shown here previously.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bova_Marina_Synagogue

    Also, fascinating enough, we can see the process of swtiching from mostly Greek to Latin in the Jewish Catacombs in Rome itself:

    The inscriptions date from the period between the first and fourth centuries C.E. The predominating language dating from the first to third centuries is Greek (76%). There are also some Latin inscriptions, written however in the Greek alphabet. From the third century on, the use of Latin in the Latin script becomes usual (23%). There is also one epigraph written in Greek with Latin letters. There are a few words in Hebrew:שאלים על ישראל, שלום (sic, with the א mater lectionis which is found sometimes also in Venosa; H.J. Leon, Jews of Ancient Rome (1960), ch. 4). The names are for the most part foreign: Latin (46%) and Greek (31%). The Semitic names (13%) include Astar, Benjamin, Eli, Gadias, Jacob, Jonathan, Judas (twice), Mara-Maria-Marta, Rebekah, and Sarah.
    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/catacombs

    So until about the 4th century AD, most Jews living in Rome were of Greek, or Hellenistic background, and based on the ancient remains of synagogues in South Italy, it seems logical they've first arrived there, then migrated north. Some probably arrived directly to Rome from the East Mediterranean, since it was the main city of the Roman Empire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targum View Post
    Samaritans are not ancestral to any living Jewish community of today.
    But a population very similar to Samaritans auDNA speaking possibly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    But a population very similar to Samaritans auDNA speaking possibly.
    Lebanese christian could be also .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    But a population very similar to Samaritans auDNA speaking possibly.
    Yes, but they are also extremely endogenous - so there should be significant genetic drift.

    By the way, their genetic make up - roughly identical to Bronze Age Levantines - stands in sharp contrast to both of our ancestor's (mine as in Jewish bible and yours as in Assyrian writings) ethnogenesis narrative of the Samaritans, and pretty much gives credibility to their own narrative.

    P.S.
    In a slightly more humorous tone, you gotta love the fact that an Assyrian discusses the ethnogenesis of Samaritans .
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    My mtDNA: K1a1b1a;

    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    P.S.
    In a slightly more humorous tone, you gotta love the fact that an Assyrian discusses the ethnogenesis of Samaritans .

    Honestly it's the only interesting discussion around here not poisoned by the IE/Steppe/R1b/R1a dilemma. If we get more aDNA from Siberia when we know next to nothing about the ancient Med and Near East I might actually lose it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post

    [CODE]

    And Cypriots:

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=1.6138"
    
             Cypriot
    
    Levant_BA_North,50
    Mycenaean,32.8
    Armenia_MLBA,10.6
    Anatolia_IA,6.6
    I put my own coordinates into a Global25 nMonte calculator and got:

    Distance 1.4845

    Levant BA north 42
    Mycenaean 40.83
    Armenia MLBA 16.67
    Anatolia IA 0

    Is that not quite a discrepancy or am I using different parameters? Not sure how to calculate single item distance. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    I put my own coordinates into a Global25 nMonte calculator and got:

    Distance 1.4845

    Levant BA north 42
    Mycenaean 40.83
    Armenia MLBA 16.67
    Anatolia IA 0

    Is that not quite a discrepancy or am I using different parameters? Not sure how to calculate single item distance. Thanks.
    Are you using nMonte 2 or 3?

    In any case - we've already discussed that IMO, Davidski's Global25 reference group for Cypriots are slightly more Levantine than most of the kits I've seen on GEDmatch. This is consistent with what you go.
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    My dad's mtDNA: K2a2a;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I've been reading some more about the ancient Roman Jewish community, particularly in the time period of 1st to 4th centuries AD, to find some connection with the Hellenistic, Greek speaking communities.

    For example, we already know that South Italy had Greek speaking and Romaniote well until Norman conquest of the South Italy. We know that the Italkim rite derives from and show most resemblance to the Romaniote rite.

    But it also seems that the most ancient synagogues in Italy, were found in South Italy, for example the The Bova Marina Synagogue, which was built in the 4th century with renovations dating to the 6th century. The synagogue is a basilica-style building that resembles the Byzantine synagogues of the Galilee, which I've shown here previously.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bova_Marina_Synagogue

    Also, fascinating enough, we can see the process of swtiching from mostly Greek to Latin in the Jewish Catacombs in Rome itself:



    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/catacombs

    So until about the 4th century AD, most Jews living in Rome were of Greek, or Hellenistic background, and based on the ancient remains of synagogues in South Italy, it seems logical they've first arrived there, then migrated north. Some probably arrived directly to Rome from the East Mediterranean, since it was the main city of the Roman Empire.
    Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words
    30EBB78C-C7A8-4B57-9A04-1A48A4D17FCB.jpeg

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  17. #3709
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah-Theodora
    she was empress of bulgaria
    she was of romaniote jewish origin { given that back than sefhardic jews were not yet arrived to bulgaria}
    later she converted to orthodox religion
    Last edited by kingjohn; 10-11-2018 at 03:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    By the way, their genetic make up - roughly identical to Bronze Age Levantines - stands in sharp contrast to both of our ancestor's (mine as in Jewish bible and yours as in Assyrian writings) ethnogenesis narrative of the Samaritans, and pretty much gives credibility to their own narrative.
    Not exactly. Their ethnogenesis narrative is, like that of the Jews, that they are a Mesopotamian/Aramean hybrid with some later Egyptian admixture that invaded and conquered Canaan, not that they are native Canaanites who differentiated themselves from their (genetically-identical) Canaanite neighbors via religion/culture.

    The latter is the modern academic narrative.

    As far as I know, though I might be wrong, the Samaritan Bible doesn't even include references to extensive intermixing between Israelites and Canaanites like the Hebrew/Jewish Bible does in later books.
    Last edited by jonahst; 10-11-2018 at 04:57 PM.

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