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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #5511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    That most of it is modeled as French implies Norman/Crusades type admixture. I just wonder why that recent study did not find it.
    Some of the models of this paper looks really off, as do some of their conclusions. If i remember correctly, one or two of the guys classified as 'Spaniards' looks pretty much Northern Europeans and the 'Lebanese-European mixes' looks like contemporary Southern Spaniards.

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    double post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    Some of the models of this paper looks really off, as do some of their conclusions. If i remember correctly, one or two of the guys classified as 'Spaniards' looks pretty much Northern Europeans and the 'Lebanese-European mixes' looks like contemporary Southern Spaniards.
    Southern Spaniards, or do you mean southern Italians?

    As far as the Levant goes I definitely think the Crusades had an impact, and I'd anticipate most of that ancestry being Norman, Italian, and British.

    I think this explains it better than anything Mycenaean or Roman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    That most of it is modeled as French implies Norman/Crusades type admixture. I just wonder why that recent study did not find it.
    I believe that they do in fact have ancestry from the Crusaders. The interesting aspect of this is that the Muslims appear to have a greater input from this source than the Christians which is not something I would expect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    I believe that they do in fact have ancestry from the Crusaders. The interesting aspect of this is that the Muslims appear to have a greater input from this source than the Christians which is not something I would expect.
    This doesn't surprise me at all, it is most likely via rape.

    I also would imagine that some of the Norman ancestry in Sicily was too.

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    Nah, there's no recent European admix in any Lebanese, Christian or Muslim.

    If the G25/nMonte models are showing significant European ancestry, then they're missing something important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Nah, there's no recent European admix in any Lebanese, Christian or Muslim.

    If the G25/nMonte models are showing significant European ancestry, then they're missing something important.
    What do you reckon the source of this 7% Yamnaya ancestry is then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LTG View Post
    I have been of the opinion for quite some time now that the Lebanese have experienced some form of intrusive gene flow from Europe due to the way that they cluster. They were officially modeled as a two way mixture of Levant BA and Yamnaya but I think it is unrealistic to believe that this European pull is the result of direct ancient incursions from Eastern Europe into the Near East. It is much more likely to be the result of Greek, Roman and Northwest European influence in more recent times in my opinion. I ran some simple models for Lebanese Christian, Lebanese Muslim and Lebanese Druze to see how much intrusive admixture they would show as well as how they would differ from one another. The results are very interesting.

    [1] "distance%=1.6487"

    Lebanese_Christian

    Levant_Canaanite_MBA,85
    French,7.4
    GRC_Mycenaean,5.6
    Italian_Bergamo,2

    [1] "distance%=2.6626"

    Lebanese_Muslim

    Levant_Canaanite_MBA,80.6
    French,11.8
    GRC_Mycenaean,3.2
    Italian_Bergamo,2.2
    Mozabite,1.6
    Yoruba,0.6

    [1] "distance%=2.4279"

    Lebanese_Druze

    Levant_Canaanite_MBA,84
    French,10.4
    GRC_Mycenaean,4
    Italian_Bergamo,1.4
    Yoruba,0.2
    For Lebanese Druzes its highly unlikely esp the ones in the Shouf (where most of them live) , that Steppe ancestry came via Normans, as they are highly endogamous, since marrying a non Druze is forbidden and were historically bitter rivals with Normans and Maronites thereafter. Steppe ancestry is more archaic. Agree with Greek ancestry as in Tawheed, Greek philosophy plays an important part in their faith. This is based off my interaction with the Druze community when I was staying in Baakline, a predominantly Druze town in the Shouf. I would extend a similar assessment for Syrian Alawites, who are ethnic cousins of the Druze.



    sample": "Lebanese_Druze:Average",
    "fit": 1.4957,
    "Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 80.83,
    "Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 10.83,
    "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2": 8.33,


    "sample": "Lebanese_Druze:Average",
    "fit": 2.4116,
    "Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 84.17,
    "French": 14.17,
    "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2": 1.67,

    They clearly prefer a more archaic source for their Steppe ancestry.

    "sample": "Lebanese_Druze:Average",
    "fit": 1.4601,
    "Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 76.67,
    "IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA": 15,
    "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2": 8.33,
    "closestDistances": [
    Last edited by pegasus; 05-27-2019 at 02:40 AM.

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    Ancient Greeks had low steppe (~20% in Mycenaeans), so if the 7% Yamnaya element in Lebanon did come from Greeks, then that would mean Hellenic ancestry would eat up a significant fraction of the Lebanese's non-steppe ancestry, too. I've become quite attached to the idea of strong continuity in Lebanon, so I'm not personally inclined to accept that theory without stronger evidence.

    We see the same problem in Balkan Greeks. If Slavic ancestry in modern Greece came directly from people who resembled Poles (which doesn't seem unlikely to me given the very Germanic Longobard remains), that would be one thing. If it came with Slavs who already resembled South Slavs, that would significantly reduce the proportion of actual ancient Greek ancestry in modern Balkan Greeks. Makes a big difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Nah, there's no recent European admix in any Lebanese, Christian or Muslim.

    If the G25/nMonte models are showing significant European ancestry, then they're missing something important.
    I agree. Also, I don't think it's that likely that there is significant additional Persian admixture to count for the additional Steppe-like admixture, because then we'll see that the ratio of the qpAdm Iran_ChL / Levant_N wouldn't stay the same as they were for Bronze Age Levantines (~50/50).

    Haber et al. (2017) suggested the following:

    It is important to note here that Bronze Age Steppe populations used in the model need not be the actual ancestral mixing populations, and the admixture could have involved a population which was itself admixed with a Steppe-like ancestry population. The time period of this mixture overlaps with the decline of the Egyptian empire and its domination over the Levant, leading some of the coastal cities to thrive, including Sidon and Tyre, which established at this time a successful maritime trade network throughout the Mediterranean. The decline in Egypt’s power was also followed by a succession of conquests of the region by distant populations such as the Assyrians, Persians, and Macedonians, any or all of whom could have carried the Steppe-like ancestry observed here in the Levant after the Bronze Age.
    While Haber et al. (2019) actually helps to frame the period in which that Steppe-like admixture occurred:

    However, more recently, using whole-genome sequences from modern and ancient individuals, we found that present-day Lebanese derive most of their genetic ancestry from the local Bronze Age population and from a Eurasian Steppe-related admixture which occurred around 1,750–170 BCE. Thus, the Lebanese autosomal genomes appear not to have been impacted by the Crusades.
    So I think the most likely people, in this scenario, would be the Assyrians, which would carry Mitanni admixture all over the Near East after they defeated the Mitanni in 1300 BC:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni-Aryan

    However, it's strange to not see any significant Mesopotamian admixture in Levantines, so this is still an enigma.

    Maybe we are dealing with direct substantial Steppe migration so late in history and settlement in the Levant?
    Last edited by Erikl86; 05-27-2019 at 07:05 AM.
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