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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #1281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    What does it mean? Does it mean Sidon Levantines were only 37% Middle Eastern? That's ludicrous - as they were native to the Levant. And you can also get no real projection for modern populations from there. Giorgio and Ajeje few posts above sampled Cretans, Jews, Dodecanese and Italians - but what does it really mean that one is 30% Middle Eastern Herder, and another one is 33%, if Bronze Age Levantines themselves were 37% in total?
    Sidon 1750-1650 BC
    Anatolian Farmer 34.749
    Middle Eastern Herder 38.069
    Mediterranean Farmer 27.181

    Middle Eastern seems higher than in modern Lebanese, the results are normal in my opinion, they have Caucasus (mistakenly called Anatolian Farmer) and EEF.

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  3. #1282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Sidon 1750-1650 BC
    Anatolian Farmer 34.749
    Middle Eastern Herder 38.069
    Mediterranean Farmer 27.181

    Middle Eastern seems higher than in modern Lebanese, the results are normal in my opinion, they have Caucasus (mistakenly called Anatolian Farmer) and EEF.
    Btw, theoretically speaking, Ligurians in North West Italy should also be mixed with Greeks to some degree and show closeness to Abruzzo or Campania Italians. Do you have any Ligurians kits? If so, share their oracles. It could be that the estimates for Greek colonization of that region are over-estimated in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Appreciate the effort. For comparison here is a Turkish Jew. Pretty cool that this person scores more Baltic than Dodocanese Greeks. I'm not surprised though since the Smyrna Greeks from some older study got next to no Euro HG a bit like that outlier Greek Calabrian community. It would be good to see how that Greek from Rhodes Island scores? Might check how the bronze age Anatolian and Levantine samples score too.

    For now just a random Jew from Turkey.

    Population
    Anatolian Farmer 25.03
    Baltic Hunter Gatherer 12.59
    Middle Eastern Herder 24.23
    East Asian Farmer 0.87
    South American Hunter Gatherer -
    South Asian Hunter Gatherer -
    North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer -
    East African Pastoralist 2.25
    Oceanian Hunter Gatherer -
    Mediterranean Farmer 35.03
    Pygmy Hunter Gatherer -
    Bantu Farmer -

    Anatolian + Middle Eastern = 49.26
    I have three Rhodian Greek sample

    each of the three:

    Anatolian Farmer 35.67
    Baltic Hunter Gatherer 6.12
    Middle Eastern Herder 22.11
    East Asian Farmer 0.88
    South American Hunter Gatherer -
    South Asian Hunter Gatherer -
    North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer -
    East African Pastoralist -
    Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.79
    Mediterranean Farmer 34.39
    Pygmy Hunter Gatherer -
    Bantu Farmer -

    Anatolian Farmer 32.76
    Baltic Hunter Gatherer 13.18
    Middle Eastern Herder 19.56
    East Asian Farmer -
    South American Hunter Gatherer -
    South Asian Hunter Gatherer 0.37
    North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer -
    East African Pastoralist -
    Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.95
    Mediterranean Farmer 33.02
    Pygmy Hunter Gatherer 0.15
    Bantu Farmer -

    Anatolian Farmer 37.07
    Baltic Hunter Gatherer 9.69
    Middle Eastern Herder 20.24
    East Asian Farmer -
    South American Hunter Gatherer -
    South Asian Hunter Gatherer -
    North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer -
    East African Pastoralist -
    Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.42
    Mediterranean Farmer 32.58
    Pygmy Hunter Gatherer -
    Bantu Farmer -

  6. #1284
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    129 pages and there is barely if not virtually no talk of uniparental markers, autosomal can be very tricky with certain calculators giving varying results, at least with uniparental markers data is more clear.
    My Y Line: J2a-Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36*

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    Just a quick point, remember reading in this thread regarding Slavic admixture in Ashkenazim, it seems to be very small, of the 101 Y lines that are listed on Jewishdna.net only 1 R1a-L1029 is unmistakably Slavic in origin (it also is a small Ashkenazi lineage), perhaps there are a couple mt’s that are Slavic in origin, if i’m not mistaken one of the Ashkenazi J1 mtdna lines has been found in ancient Iron Age Baltic samples.
    My Y Line: J2a-Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36*

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  10. #1286
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    Further inspection also reveals minor German admixture which seems to be slightly more than Slavic or possibly the same. With Y lineages like U106 Ivanhoe (I know this line was originally Sephardic but the ancestor who converted to Judaism was definitely either a Vandal or Visigoth), I1-Z140, and I2-P78.

    The main problem with finding out if Greece or Italy is the main contributor to Southern Euro dna in Ashkenazim and presumably Sephardim is the lack of Greek NGS testing and there is also evidence of Italian Y lines like the R1b-Z56 lineages (L4 and Z145) and I2-PF6950. Where as Greece only I-Y23115 looks to be haven been a Greek convert for certain.
    My Y Line: J2a-Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36*

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  12. #1287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Further inspection also reveals minor German admixture which seems to be slightly more than Slavic or possibly the same. With Y lineages like U106 Ivanhoe (I know this line was originally Sephardic but the ancestor who converted to Judaism was definitely either a Vandal or Visigoth), I1-Z140, and I2-P78.

    The main problem with finding out if Greece or Italy is the main contributor to Southern Euro dna in Ashkenazim and presumably Sephardim is the lack of Greek NGS testing and there is also evidence of Italian Y lines like the R1b-Z56 lineages (L4 and Z145) and I2-PF6950. Where as Greece only I-Y23115 looks to be haven been a Greek convert for certain.
    I2-P78 is also found in some North African Jews. I think it'd be a mistake to assume that German admixture is more prominent than Slavic admixture going off the uniparental lineages (very unlikely TBH), since in both cases we're dealing with relatively rare lineages. The U152 lineages are much more common in comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Just a quick point, remember reading in this thread regarding Slavic admixture in Ashkenazim, it seems to be very small, of the 101 Y lines that are listed on Jewishdna.net only 1 R1a-L1029 is unmistakably Slavic in origin (it also is a small Ashkenazi lineage), perhaps there are a couple mt’s that are Slavic in origin, if i’m not mistaken one of the Ashkenazi J1 mtdna lines has been found in ancient Iron Age Baltic samples.
    Most of the J1c lines in Ashkenazim are European, and the European J1c lines seem to have (re-)expanded with CW.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-12-2018 at 08:34 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I2-P78 is also found in some North African Jews. I think it'd be a mistake to assume that German admixture is more prominent than Slavic admixture going off the uniparental lineages (very unlikely TBH), since in both cases we're dealing with relatively rare lineages. The U152 lineages are much more common in comparison.

    Most of the J1c lines in Ashkenazim are European, and the European J1c lines seem to have (re-)expanded with CW.
    I think that further strengthens I2-P78 was introduced by Germans (Vandals very likely?). I agree with everything you wrote but the point I was trying to make is that Slavic admixture is much more recent perhaps explains the variation between individuals where as German despite being minor appears to have been present during the bottleneck.

    Unfortunately not many BigY’s were done with the two Z56 lineages, there is three for L4 and the TMRCA is actually quite old compared to other Ashkenazi TMRCA’s at 1550 ybp.

    What is your opinion on the big four Ashkenazi mtdna lines, I’ve been doing a little research on it earlier.
    Last edited by Principe; 07-12-2018 at 08:53 PM.
    My Y Line: J2a-Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36*

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  16. #1289
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    The locations of early Jewish population centers in the European mediterranean probably had high amounts of E, G, J and T haplogroups and there could have been varying degrees of cultural or ethnic barriers between different peoples living alongside with Jews. I believe that R1 and I have a rater tiny and underrepresented share on all Jewish Y-DNA lineages of European origin and there is much more to be found in other haplogroups. The problem is that they are harder to identify than solid Northern European subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    I think that further strengthens I2-P78 was introduced by Germans (Vandals very likely?). I agree with everything you wrote but the point I was trying to make is that Slavic admixture is much more recent perhaps explains the variation between individuals where as German despite being minor appears to have been present during the bottleneck.

    Unfortunately not many BigY’s were done with the two Z56 lineages, there is three for L4 and the TMRCA is actually quite old compared to other Ashkenazi TMRCA’s at 1550 ybp.

    What is your opinion on the big four Ashkenazi mtdna lines, I’ve been doing a little research on it earlier.
    I very much agree, the higher frequency of ostensibly German lineages has more to do with the bottleneck than anything else.

    Regarding the mtDNA lineages found in Ashkenazi Jews, the vast majority seems to be Southern European (and, more,to the point, Western Mediterranean), though one of the "founding mothers" seems to have been Levantine. The J1c lineages are undoubtedly Balto-Slavic. The lineages that are firmly Levantine are in the minority, though they're not exactly as rare as the Slavic and Germanic patrilineages (my father is U7a5 for example, we have a pre-U7a5 sample from Eastern Arabia and U7 is one of the Samaritan mtDNA lineages too so this is very likely to have been present among the Israelites and their Canaanite ancestors). Then you get some odd East Asian and even SSA lineages here and there. It's a mixed bag, the picture is by and large the reverse of what we see on the Y Chromosomal side.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-12-2018 at 09:16 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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