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Thread: Could Western Jews (Ash. and Seph.) descend from Aegeans and Levantine admixture?

  1. #1291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nive1526 View Post
    The locations of early Jewish population centers in the European mediterranean probably had high amounts of E, G, J and T haplogroups and there could have been varying degrees of cultural or ethnic barriers between different peoples living alongside with Jews. I believe that R1 and I have a rater tiny and underrepresented share on all Jewish Y-DNA lineages of European origin and there is much more to be found in other haplogroups. The problem is that they are harder to identify than solid Northern European subclades.
    Most of the R1 lineages in Ashkenazi Jews are not of recent European origin, this is easy to tell as they show up in non-Ashkenazi Jews (albeit at a lower frequency). They're mainly branches of R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103 and R1b-V88, you at least need to go all the way back to the Early Bronze Age to pinpoint the original European source (early IE dispersals), and back to the Mesolithic for V88.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-12-2018 at 09:44 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I very much agree, the higher frequency of ostensibly German lineages has more to do with the bottleneck than anything else.

    Regarding the mtDNA lineages found in Ashkenazi Jews, the vast majority seems to be Southern European (and, more,to the point, Western Mediterranean), though one of the "founding mothers" seems to have been Levantine. The J1c lineages are undoubtedly Balto-Slavic. The lineages that are firmly Levantine are in the minority, though they're not exactly as rare as the Slavic and Germanic patrilineages (my father is U7a5 for example, we have a pre-U7a5 sample from Eastern Arabia and U7 is one of the Samaritan mtDNA lineages too so this is very likely to have been present among the Israelites and their Canaanite ancestors). Then you get some odd East Asian and even SSA lineages here and there. It's a mixed bag, the picture is by and large the reverse of what we see on the Y Chromosomal side.
    Thanks for all the info, much appreciated. If Iím not mistaken the founding mother that is likely Levantine is the N1b? Isnít it crazy (in an interesting way) that the paternal and maternal lines are opposite, its actually fascinating. It seems that the Diaspora into Europe was mostly male meditated and they took local wives (I know its been said in scientific papers), the data real shows this.

    Now do you think its possible that same source for all the Southern Euro mtdna was the same for some of Y that seems to be descendants of converts. I think Northern Italy makes sense like you have said in the past and demonstrated data for, I think even Southern France might have played a small role as well some lines look to be Celtic in origin like U152>L2>L408 and J2b-L283>Z631.
    My Y Line: J2a-Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Most of the R1 lineages in Ashkenazi Jews are not of recent European origin, this is easy to tell as they show up in non-Ashkenazi Jews (albeit at a lower frequency). They're mainly branches of R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103 and R1b-V88, you at least need to go all the way back to the Early Bronze Age to pinpoint the original European source (early IE dispersals), and back to the Mesolithic for V88.
    Do you agree with Rachel Unkefer et. al. regarding a possible Iberian origin for some Ashkenazi lineages under FGC20747?

    (http://www.academia.edu/25638614/Y-D...Iberian_Origin)

    Saludos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nive1526 View Post
    The locations of early Jewish population centers in the European mediterranean probably had high amounts of E, G, J and T haplogroups and there could have been varying degrees of cultural or ethnic barriers between different peoples living alongside with Jews. I believe that R1 and I have a rater tiny and underrepresented share on all Jewish Y-DNA lineages of European origin and there is much more to be found in other haplogroups. The problem is that they are harder to identify than solid Northern European subclades.
    There is also one Ashkenazi R1b lineage that always gets misrepresented and its R1b-PF7563>A11720, its entry on Jewishdna doesnít do its justice, if you look at Jewish R1b project of ftdna it is visibly the largest if not very close second to U106 Ivanhoe and amongst the top 15 most common Ashkenazi Y lines, as for the rest Aga covered it in the other response.
    My Y Line: J2a-Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Thanks for all the info, much appreciated. If I’m not mistaken the founding mother that is likely Levantine is the N1b? Isn’t it crazy (in an interesting way) that the paternal and maternal lines are opposite, its actually fascinating. It seems that the Diaspora into Europe was mostly male meditated and they took local wives (I know its been said in scientific papers), the data real shows this.

    Now do you think its possible that same source for all the Southern Euro mtdna was the same for some of Y that seems to be descendants of converts. I think Northern Italy makes sense like you have said in the past and demonstrated data for, I think even Southern France might have played a small role as well some lines look to be Celtic in origin like U152>L2>L408 and J2b-L283>Z631.
    Actually the lineage I had in mind is K1a9, but a fair case can also be made for N1b2. And yes, the data strongly suggests either (1) that the matrilineal law still wasn't in effect back when the ethnogenesis of Western Jewry occurred or (2) that conversion was considerably less stringent back then. By the way, two of the Late Neolithic samples from Kehf el Baroud (KEB.3 & KEB.4) were K1a1b1, which IMHO underlines the Western Mediterranean origin of this lineage (or, in different words, its association with the Neolithic populations of the Western Mediterranean).

    I cannot envision a scenario where the source of these Western Mediterranean lineages is different from that of the most prominent non-Levantine lineages (such as R1b-Z56). This might even count for the lineages that are likely to be Celtic in origin (notably under U152, L21 and DF27), the Celts had a very important presence in Northern Italy, we still find branches of Z36 and Z49 in Northern Italy nowadays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menchaca View Post
    Do you agree with Rachel Unkefer et. al. regarding a possible Iberian origin for some Ashkenazi lineages under FGC20747?

    (http://www.academia.edu/25638614/Y-D...Iberian_Origin)

    Saludos
    Absolutely, in fact I expect this branch of DF27 to eventually show up in Sephardic Jews.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-12-2018 at 11:19 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Most of the R1 lineages in Ashkenazi Jews are not of recent European origin, this is easy to tell as they show up in non-Ashkenazi Jews (albeit at a lower frequency). They're mainly branches of R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103 and R1b-V88, you at least need to go all the way back to the Early Bronze Age to pinpoint the original European source (early IE dispersals), and back to the Mesolithic for V88.
    The line I have my eye on is R1b>Z2103>FGC14589/Y13369>L584> FGC1459O, PF7580>Y16852, FGC14598. This branch includes F38, Tepe Hasanlu, Northern Zagros (Iran), 971-832 cal BCE. There is also an Iraqi Jew that has tested positive for FGC14598 and needs to be NGS tested. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y16852/
    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    There is also one Ashkenazi R1b lineage that always gets misrepresented and its R1b-PF7563>A11720, its entry on Jewishdna doesn’t do its justice, if you look at Jewish R1b project of ftdna it is visibly the largest if not very close second to U106 Ivanhoe and amongst the top 15 most common Ashkenazi Y lines, as for the rest Aga covered it in the other response.
    Couldn't agree with you more about R1b-PF7563>A11711, A11720 being an important line.
    Last edited by Joe B; 07-13-2018 at 01:34 AM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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    @Principe
    Actually, we did discuss markers several pages ago.

    I think there is no point in trying to find remnants of conversion when it comes to paternal lineages, as it has been established by virtually all papers in the past 15 years that Western Jewish diaspora was established by men coming from the Levant and converting non Levantine women.
    However, regarding European origins of male R1b subclades - I'm not convinced at all it's specifically Italian, as these exist in France as well. If anything, it would make perfect sense that if any European paternal lineages will enter Western Jews gene pool, it would be in Western Europe , as a result of rape during the first expulsions and crusades.

    On the other hand, historically speaking, one of the reasons early church got rid of circumcisions so fast was that in the Greco-Roman world, it was considered self mutilation which caused most of the full converts in Hellenistic Jewish communities to be women rather than men.

    Thus, we need to focus specifically on mtDNA's origins.

    Then, you have a problem with the well known Ashkenazi genetic bottleneck. You see, both k1a1b1a and k1a9, which most likely have Western European origins, exist in other European non Ashkenazi Jews, like Sephardi Jews, but in much lower prevalence. They don't exist in non European Jewish communities - ie, Mizrahi or Yemenite.

    So looking at the 30% prevalence of these haplogroups among Ashkenazim means many other founding mothers which were autosomally important to our gene pool, never get any reflection in our markers, which largely dictated by that genetic bottleneck.

    My opinion, is that if you want to look for sources of South European admixture into Western Jews, you have to focus on mtDNA of Sephardic Jews, not Ashkenazi Jews, and certainly not paternal haplogroups.

    To much of my knowledge, as of today, no specific Italian mtDNA subclade was found among either Sephardim or Ashkenazim. Western European, yes, but if you look at it's prevalence among Sephardim which haven't gone through severe genetic bottleneck, you see it's not 30% of the maternal lineages.

    As for autosomal testings - they consistently show that both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews are East Mediterranean people, and they cluster closely with Sicilians, South Italians and Greek islanders. They do not cluster with Tuscans or North Italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    @Principe
    Actually, we did discuss markers several pages ago.

    I think there is no point in trying to find remnants of conversion when it comes to paternal lineages, as it has been established by virtually all papers in the past 15 years that Western Jewish diaspora was established by men coming from the Levant and converting non Levantine women.
    However, regarding European origins of male R1b subclades - I'm not convinced at all it's specifically Italian, as these exist in France as well. If anything, it would make perfect sense that if any European paternal lineages will enter Western Jews gene pool, it would be in Western Europe , as a result of rape during the first expulsions and crusades.

    On the other hand, historically speaking, one of the reasons early church got rid of circumcisions so fast was that in the Greco-Roman world, it was considered self mutilation which caused most of the full converts in Hellenistic Jewish communities to be women rather than men.

    Thus, we need to focus specifically on mtDNA's origins.

    Then, you have a problem with the well known Ashkenazi genetic bottleneck. You see, both k1a1b1a and k1a9, which most likely have Western European origins, exist in other European non Ashkenazi Jews, like Sephardi Jews, but in much lower prevalence. They don't exist in non European Jewish communities - ie, Mizrahi or Yemenite.

    So looking at the 30% prevalence of these haplogroups among Ashkenazim means many other founding mothers which were autosomally important to our gene pool, never get any reflection in our markers, which largely dictated by that genetic bottleneck.

    My opinion, is that if you want to look for sources of South European admixture into Western Jews, you have to focus on mtDNA of Sephardic Jews, not Ashkenazi Jews, and certainly not paternal haplogroups.

    To much of my knowledge, as of today, no specific Italian mtDNA subclade was found among either Sephardim or Ashkenazim. Western European, yes, but if you look at it's prevalence among Sephardim which haven't gone through severe genetic bottleneck, you see it's not 30% of the maternal lineages.

    As for autosomal testings - they consistently show that both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews are East Mediterranean people, and they cluster closely with Sicilians, South Italians and Greek islanders. They do not cluster with Tuscans or North Italians.
    I apologise if you have answered this before on this thread (there are already 130 pages :- but on what basis do we group Syrian Jews with other Western Jews and what is it that separates them from Separdim, or could they be seen as a subgroup of Sephardim or even vice versa? What is it that separates Syrian Jews and puts them amongst Western Jews rather than amongst the Mizrahim, both historically and genetically?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    I think Northern Italy makes sense like you have said in the past and demonstrated data for, I think even Southern France might have played a small role as well some lines look to be Celtic in origin like U152>L2>L408 and J2b-L283>Z631.
    What is your opinion on your own Y-DNA line?
    You're upstream of Y15223, which is Jewish, but everything downstream of this subclade up until Z482 seems to be mostly European. I think it is likely that the Jewish subclade under L210 was picked up in Europe, most likely in Italy from a convertite at a very early stage during the Roman empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    I apologise if you have answered this before on this thread (there are already 130 pages :- but on what basis do we group Syrian Jews with other Western Jews and what is it that separates them from Separdim, or could they be seen as a subgroup of Sephardim or even vice versa? What is it that separates Syrian Jews and puts them amongst Western Jews rather than amongst the Mizrahim, both historically and genetically?
    No problem - both me and Targum have explained here many pages ago that Syrian Jews are Western Jews, for several reasons.

    First, one needs to know what are the diffrences between "Western Jews" and "Mizrahi Jews". Traditionally speaking, Mizrahi Jews are Jews which have originated from the Babylonian diaspora, itself created as a result of the Babylonian captivity, around 586 BC. When Cyrus the Great of Persia allowed the Jews of that captivity to return back to Judea and build the Second Temple in Jerusalem, not all of them wanted to return, and some stayed back in Babylon. These would be the ancestors of the Babylonian diaspora Jews. Later on, these Jews spread out through all the area from Iran/Afghanistan and Central Asia, up to Iraq. The name "Mizrahi" comes from the word "Mizrah" in Hebrew, which means "Orient"/"East".
    Mizrahi Jews also followed sages and liturgical rites stemming from Babylon, which for many centuries, and especially after the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans, was a very important religious center for Jews all over the world.
    Genetically speaking, Iraqi, Kurdish, Iranian, Azeri and Uzbeki Jews all cluster together and with Mesopotamian populations, rather than with East Mediterranean populations like Western Jews do.

    Western Jews, on the other hand, are thought to form as a result of the Hellenistic diaspora and later on as a result of the Roman captivity after the Roman-Jewish wars of the 1st and 2nd centuries AD. This designation btw, "Western Jews", does not exist as a religious or ethnic designation among Jews. It's more of a historical-genetic designation.
    Anyhow, religiously speaking, they followed the liturgical rites of Jerusalem rather than Babylon.
    The exception being Sephardic Jews, which follow a liturgical rite based on the Babylonian one, which was also followed in West North Africa in early medieval times. After the expulsion of the Sephardic Jews from the Iberian peninsula in 1492, when they settled around the Mediterranean and Levant, and mixed with pre-existing non-Sephardic Western Jews, they usually "Sephardicize" many of them and those pre-Sephardic communities then started following the Sephardic, or Babylonian-based liturgical traditions (that was the case for many Italian Jews and Romaniote Jews, for example).
    When examined autosomally, Western Jews cluster with Eastern Mediterranean people and with each other, rather than with their hosting non-Jewish traditional neighbors. This means they all descendants of the same Jewish community, which at it's core is based on Levantine/Judean men that converted and married with South European women.
    The traditional Western Jewish communities are: Romaniote Jews, Italian Jews (called "Italqim" to separate from Sephardic Italian Jews), Syrian Jews, Ashkenazi Jews, Maghrebi (North African non-Sephardic Jews) and Sephardic Jews.
    Italqim, Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews cluster especially close to each other, which lead many to believe that the former, more ancient one (Italqim) are the ancestors of the latter (Ashkenazi and Sephardi) two communities.

    Anyhow, Syrian Jews are considered Western Jews for the following reasons:

    Historically: They are considered to have originated from the expulsion/diaspora from the Land of Israel/Judea.
    Religiously: Before mixing with Sephardic Jews, they traditionally followed a liturgical rite stemming from Israel, rather than Babylonian-based one. Check out Old Aleppo Rite.
    Genetically: They cluster with other Western Jews and Eastern Mediterranean people, and far away from any Mesopotamian population.

    Hope this helps.

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